Türkiye, Pakistan deepen defense ties with KAAN jet export, joint helicopter project

[K2RULEZ]

KAAN's RCS is I believe better than J35's and is believed to be around 0.003m2 whereas J35 has significantly larger RCS. So I believe that J35 is just a stopgap til Pakistan's procurement of KAAN.

PAF will operate both. Numerically PAF has to be close to India.

 

[UKBengali]

KAAN's RCS is I believe better than J35's and is believed to be around 0.003m2 whereas J35 has significantly larger RCS. So I believe that J35 is just a stopgap til Pakistan's procurement of KAAN.

Where did you get these numbers from and J-35A will be more advanced than KAAN for sure in every parameter, although KAAN will be a larger and more heavier fighter?

 

[Goku-Kun]

My guess is KAAN numbers will be around 90-100 and delivery will be during 2035-45 period or even till 2050.

View KAAN as the successor to PFX.

KAAN will acquired in even larger numbers probably above 200+ if the production line is established in Pakistan whereas PFX will be a F16 Block 72 or J10C standard fighter and since Pakistan Air Force wanted to have a fleet of at least 150-160 modern F16s which they weren't able to get because US didn't allow further sales to us so PFX would fill that gap.

 

[HeratKabul]

PAF will operate both. Numerically PAF has to be close to India.

I guess minor issues like funding will have already been addressed with IMF, considering KAAN and JF-35 both have a "starting" base price of $100m per piece?.

 

[Ak01]

PAF will operate both. Numerically PAF has to be close to India.

the PAF will significantly thin down its manned fleet as time goes on. It is simply impossible to keep the fleet at large numbers while inducting more advanced aircraft.

Naturally the PAF is going for a mixed fleet of 4.5 and 5th gens. Clearly they've committed to J-10s and supporting the JF-17 platform for the longer term.

That leaves F-16s and Mirages.

I still dont believe the J-35 actually meets the wants of the PAF. The reality is, the deep strike aircraft the PAF envisioned when they released AZM ASR was NOT the J-35 at all, rather, it seems to be more akin to what the TFX is coming out to be. Larger weapons bay, likely greater combat radius and also, realistically, probably better OEM support.

I am more than happy to be proven wrong, but, i suspect the J-35 is being used as more of a pressure tactic than anything else.

The PAF had done this previously, when we were looking to secure a favourable deal on the Mirage 2000, the PAF started to evaluate the SU27 and then provided indication that it would make a buy, all in the effort to get France to provide a favourable deal.

It does not make any sense, the PAF announcing a deal (j35) which would have far greater strategic implications and could trigger a serious arms race, but then did not announce J-10 procurement, nor the procurement of a handful of drones, or even SAMs, none of which would have any effect on the current environment. It all seems too fishy.

The PAF also had horrible experiences with CATIC, particularly when it came to support for the JF-17 project, from unreliable/expensive spare parts to downright exploitation when it came to the purchase of spares. CATIC would scrub part numbers so the PAF could not go out and procure harnesses and cabling themselves for example.

PFX in itself is a means of reducing reliance on the Chinese, by taking over the production line (which China isn't intending on continuing to support anyway) bringing control home, alongside giving us more autonomy on the production of components and also parts. This is a good thing, where we will have finally actually indigenised the JF-17, being able to ACTUALLY do what we want with it. Not having Chinese lock us out of certain areas for example.

This is the kind of control the US exerts on its partners, the Chinese have been no different, just less vocal but motivated more by money and greed than politics unlike the yanks.

If the PAF was to actually procure the J-35, it would likely be as a result of poor, short-sighted decision making, alongside Sidhu's pockets being lined. I don't think its the right choice and i suspect the PAF doesn't either.

The PAF knows it missed the mark with the TFX and will be too late to get in at any point. Turkey knows it needs us to actually ensure they can drive the cost down to the point where they can actually procure it and support it in any reasonable numbers. The Saudi's expressing interest is also a good sign, potentially hinting at some Pakistani involvement (pilots, ground crew etc).

If the PAF was to procure both, its clear the TFX would be a longer term investment, coming to fruition later, via replacement of the F-16s while the Mirages are subbed out via the J-35 (even though this doesn't make sense). But at the end of the day, its very clear, that what the TFX is DUE TO BE, is an aircraft better suited for the PAF. The force's scepticism is warranted, just because the aircraft has flown, does not mean it will 100% make it out, the SU57 is a great example of this. Though, i am more certain than not, that the TFX will enter service, however, we never know...

Realistically, we will likely procure 3/4 squadrons of FGFA's, which is ALOT, with the rest made up of 4.5 and UCAVs

 

[Ak01]

I guess minor issues like funding will have already been addressed with IMF, considering KAAN and JF-35 both have a "starting" base price of $100m per piece?.

considering aircraft purchases are long term investments, backed by long term funding solutions, im not sure how a short term imf deal has any relevance.

 

[K2RULEZ]

the PAF will significantly thin down its manned fleet as time goes on. It is simply impossible to keep the fleet at large numbers while inducting more advanced aircraft.

Naturally the PAF is going for a mixed fleet of 4.5 and 5th gens. Clearly they've committed to J-10s and supporting the JF-17 platform for the longer term.

That leaves F-16s and Mirages.

I still dont believe the J-35 actually meets the wants of the PAF. The reality is, the deep strike aircraft the PAF envisioned when they released AZM ASR was NOT the J-35 at all, rather, it seems to be more akin to what the TFX is coming out to be. Larger weapons bay, likely greater combat radius and also, realistically, probably better OEM support.

I am more than happy to be proven wrong, but, i suspect the J-35 is being used as more of a pressure tactic than anything else.

The PAF had done this previously, when we were looking to secure a favourable deal on the Mirage 2000, the PAF started to evaluate the SU27 and then provided indication that it would make a buy, all in the effort to get France to provide a favourable deal.

It does not make any sense, the PAF announcing a deal (j35) which would have far greater strategic implications and could trigger a serious arms race, but then did not announce J-10 procurement, nor the procurement of a handful of drones, or even SAMs, none of which would have any effect on the current environment. It all seems too fishy.

The PAF also had horrible experiences with CATIC, particularly when it came to support for the JF-17 project, from unreliable/expensive spare parts to downright exploitation when it came to the purchase of spares. CATIC would scrub part numbers so the PAF could not go out and procure harnesses and cabling themselves for example.

PFX in itself is a means of reducing reliance on the Chinese, by taking over the production line (which China isn't intending on continuing to support anyway) bringing control home, alongside giving us more autonomy on the production of components and also parts. This is a good thing, where we will have finally actually indigenised the JF-17, being able to ACTUALLY do what we want with it. Not having Chinese lock us out of certain areas for example.

This is the kind of control the US exerts on its partners, the Chinese have been no different, just less vocal but motivated more by money and greed than politics unlike the yanks.

If the PAF was to actually procure the J-35, it would likely be as a result of poor, short-sighted decision making, alongside Sidhu's pockets being lined. I don't think its the right choice and i suspect the PAF doesn't either.

The PAF knows it missed the mark with the TFX and will be too late to get in at any point. Turkey knows it needs us to actually ensure they can drive the cost down to the point where they can actually procure it and support it in any reasonable numbers. The Saudi's expressing interest is also a good sign, potentially hinting at some Pakistani involvement (pilots, ground crew etc).

If the PAF was to procure both, its clear the TFX would be a longer term investment, coming to fruition later, via replacement of the F-16s while the Mirages are subbed out via the J-35 (even though this doesn't make sense). But at the end of the day, its very clear, that what the TFX is DUE TO BE, is an aircraft better suited for the PAF. The force's scepticism is warranted, just because the aircraft has flown, does not mean it will 100% make it out, the SU57 is a great example of this. Though, i am more certain than not, that the TFX will enter service, however, we never know...

Realistically, we will likely procure 3/4 squadrons of FGFA's, which is ALOT, with the rest made up of 4.5 and UCAVs

I wasn't aware regard CATIC. That is painful to know.

You say the J-35 acquisition is more likely a pressure tactic? A pressure tactic for what exactly?

 

[Ak01]

I wasn't aware regard CATIC. That is painful to know.

You say the J-35 acquisition is more likely a pressure tactic? A pressure tactic for what exactly?

Well, we've missed the mark to get any sort of workshare or influence on TFX. We kinda just have to take the final product if we did, unless we can make it seem like were not all that interested anymore, enabling the turks to then aim to sweeten any deals offered to us, i.e production line, workshare, offsets etc

 

[Ali_Baba]

For that number, PAF's military budget can't afford to support such a fleet of fighters. The funding gap is very large.

It does as always come down to the costs for sure. PAF will want to diversify her fleet and have the option of training with western airforces which is important to it. I do see PAF being able to procure both fleets, given the importance of the technology. We have seen both the Pakistan Navy and Army defer funding to allow PAF to procure systems. People will make it happen at the expense of other procurements if it comes down to it.

If it as you say, it comes down to just 1 platform that they can procure, it will be the Kaan they go for as a fleet of J10CE, and JF17s allows for training with the PLAAF, and Kaan will allow for the west. Kaan better meets the needs of the PAF as a replacement for the F16s and Mirages than the J-35A does. Also diversity of weapons is important to any countries defence and more so to Pakistan, so they will want to have a non-chinese platform to reduce risk. This of course assumes that both Kaan and J35 are broadly similar in capability and Kaan has solved its engine issues.

 

[Quwa]

the PAF will significantly thin down its manned fleet as time goes on. It is simply impossible to keep the fleet at large numbers while inducting more advanced aircraft.

Naturally the PAF is going for a mixed fleet of 4.5 and 5th gens. Clearly they've committed to J-10s and supporting the JF-17 platform for the longer term.

That leaves F-16s and Mirages.

I still dont believe the J-35 actually meets the wants of the PAF. The reality is, the deep strike aircraft the PAF envisioned when they released AZM ASR was NOT the J-35 at all, rather, it seems to be more akin to what the TFX is coming out to be. Larger weapons bay, likely greater combat radius and also, realistically, probably better OEM support.

I am more than happy to be proven wrong, but, i suspect the J-35 is being used as more of a pressure tactic than anything else.

The PAF had done this previously, when we were looking to secure a favourable deal on the Mirage 2000, the PAF started to evaluate the SU27 and then provided indication that it would make a buy, all in the effort to get France to provide a favourable deal.

It does not make any sense, the PAF announcing a deal (j35) which would have far greater strategic implications and could trigger a serious arms race, but then did not announce J-10 procurement, nor the procurement of a handful of drones, or even SAMs, none of which would have any effect on the current environment. It all seems too fishy.

The PAF also had horrible experiences with CATIC, particularly when it came to support for the JF-17 project, from unreliable/expensive spare parts to downright exploitation when it came to the purchase of spares. CATIC would scrub part numbers so the PAF could not go out and procure harnesses and cabling themselves for example.

PFX in itself is a means of reducing reliance on the Chinese, by taking over the production line (which China isn't intending on continuing to support anyway) bringing control home, alongside giving us more autonomy on the production of components and also parts. This is a good thing, where we will have finally actually indigenised the JF-17, being able to ACTUALLY do what we want with it. Not having Chinese lock us out of certain areas for example.

This is the kind of control the US exerts on its partners, the Chinese have been no different, just less vocal but motivated more by money and greed than politics unlike the yanks.

If the PAF was to actually procure the J-35, it would likely be as a result of poor, short-sighted decision making, alongside Sidhu's pockets being lined. I don't think its the right choice and i suspect the PAF doesn't either.

The PAF knows it missed the mark with the TFX and will be too late to get in at any point. Turkey knows it needs us to actually ensure they can drive the cost down to the point where they can actually procure it and support it in any reasonable numbers. The Saudi's expressing interest is also a good sign, potentially hinting at some Pakistani involvement (pilots, ground crew etc).

If the PAF was to procure both, its clear the TFX would be a longer term investment, coming to fruition later, via replacement of the F-16s while the Mirages are subbed out via the J-35 (even though this doesn't make sense). But at the end of the day, its very clear, that what the TFX is DUE TO BE, is an aircraft better suited for the PAF. The force's scepticism is warranted, just because the aircraft has flown, does not mean it will 100% make it out, the SU57 is a great example of this. Though, i am more certain than not, that the TFX will enter service, however, we never know...

Realistically, we will likely procure 3/4 squadrons of FGFA's, which is ALOT, with the rest made up of 4.5 and UCAVs

The Chinese NGFA option was on the cards since ACM Aman's time. It isn't an ACM Siddhu thing, though he announced it, I suspect it was in the works before him.

Hence, I think there is a decent chance the J-35A will pan out, and not necessarily due to any legacy antics.

For ex., we don't know the real degree of serviceability of the PAF F-16A/B fleet, esp. as those jets near 50 years of age. As the aircraft age, I think the risk of not flying them as often and other issues will start increasing.

AVIC may have indicated to the PAF that the J-35As could replace the F-16A/B's by 2035/2040 if the PAF commits soon.

The other factor could be to spruce up the maritime leg. The IN's aviation element is a serious threat. So, having a J-35A sqn, esp if certain maritime ops features (such as corrosion-proofing) are all there, could help.

Finally, I don't buy the WS-10G claims at all. I reckon any TFX the PAF gets will use Turkiye's indigenous engines. With that in mind, we're talking about -- at the earliest -- mid-to-late 2030s before the PAF gets its first KAAN.

So, there is an open period through the 2030s. Hence, it's possible that the PAF is looking at the J-35A to shore up its fleet in that timeframe.

I always maintained that any J-35A buy would center on the PAF's offensive wings, i.e., the F-16 and Mirage ROSE. Currently, the PAF is configuring the JF-17Cs to help with those roles (especially strike), but the J-35A is another ballgame.

Basically, the J-35A alone can replace both F-16s and Mirages in the A2A and A2G roles, respectively. Then there's the maritime aspect too.

In that context, where does the KAAN fit in? Well, if we're talking about a variant fitted with the TEI engines, then we're looking at a later block variant.

It's possible that this later TFX block will be more optimized for the strike role. Hence, when the 2040s roll around, the PAF could then center its attack wings on the KAAN as a command unit with J-35As a dual A2A/A2G role and the UCAV (possibly Kizilelma) for loyal wingman and high-risk strike ops.

With all that said, however, when the PAF shifts to the next-gen, the numbers of crewed platforms will go down (as you said).

The 80-unit baseline was valid for F-16 or J-10-type aircraft, but not for the J-35A and KAAN. Not only are these planes both bigger and costlier, but the doctrines for needing them are quite different. They're niche needs: deep strike, maritime ops, OCA, etc.

I can see a potential J-35A acquisition actually reaching 80-90 units, but the KAAN would likely be limited to 40 units, IMO. Maybe replacing the Block-52s.

 

[Goku-Kun]

The Chinese NGFA option was on the cards since ACM Aman's time. It isn't an ACM Siddhu thing, though he announced it, I suspect it was in the works before him.

Hence, I think there is a decent chance the J-35A will pan out, and not necessarily due to any legacy antics.

For ex., we don't know the real degree of serviceability of the PAF F-16A/B fleet, esp. as those jets near 50 years of age. As the aircraft age, I think the risk of not flying them as often and other issues will start increasing.

AVIC may have indicated to the PAF that the J-35As could replace the F-16A/B's by 2035/2040 if the PAF commits soon.

The other factor could be to spruce up the maritime leg. The IN's aviation element is a serious threat. So, having a J-35A sqn, esp if certain maritime ops features (such as corrosion-proofing) are all there, could help.

Finally, I don't buy the WS-10G claims at all. I reckon any TFX the PAF gets will use Turkiye's indigenous engines. With that in mind, we're talking about -- at the earliest -- mid-to-late 2030s before the PAF gets its first KAAN.

So, there is an open period through the 2030s. Hence, it's possible that the PAF is looking at the J-35A to shore up its fleet in that timeframe.

I always maintained that any J-35A buy would center on the PAF's offensive wings, i.e., the F-16 and Mirage ROSE. Currently, the PAF is configuring the JF-17Cs to help with those roles (especially strike), but the J-35A is another ballgame.

Basically, the J-35A alone can replace both F-16s and Mirages in the A2A and A2G roles, respectively. Then there's the maritime aspect too.

In that context, where does the KAAN fit in? Well, if we're talking about a variant fitted with the TEI engines, then we're looking at a later block variant.

It's possible that this later TFX block will be more optimized for the strike role. Hence, when the 2040s roll around, the PAF could then center its attack wings on the KAAN as a command unit with J-35As a dual A2A/A2G role and the UCAV (possibly Kizilelma) for loyal wingman and high-risk strike ops.

With all that said, however, when the PAF shifts to the next-gen, the numbers of crewed platforms will go down (as you said).

The 80-unit baseline was valid for F-16 or J-10-type aircraft, but not for the J-35A and KAAN. Not only are these planes both bigger and costlier, but the doctrines for needing them are quite different. They're niche needs: deep strike, maritime ops, OCA, etc.

I can see a potential J-35A acquisition actually reaching 80-90 units, but the KAAN would likely be limited to 40 units, IMO. Maybe replacing the Block-52s.

what about PFX?

 

[Feroze]

View attachment 94434
Türkiye's KAAN fighter jet. (TAI Photo)

Türkiye and Pakistan are advancing discussions on key bilateral defense and industrial collaborations, with a focus on the potential export of Türkiye’s fifth-generation fighter jet, KAAN. The talks took place during the eighth Pak-Turk Industrial Expo Joint Working Group meeting in Pakistan.

Representatives from 32 institutions, including major companies from both nations, participated in the discussions.

Why it matters

The meeting highlights the strengthening defense collaboration between Türkiye and Pakistan. Talks on KAAN’s export and plans for a jointly designed helicopter reflect their shared focus on advancing military technology and industrial cooperation.

Details

The meeting was organized by the National Aerospace Science and Technology Park and Defence Industries Secretariat.
Türkiye’s delegation was led by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) General Manager Mehmet Demiroglu and included companies like Milsoft, Crypttech, SDT, Aselsan and Havelsan.
Pakistan’s delegation comprised representatives from 23 companies.

Zoom in

The discussions centered on two key areas:

The export of Türkiye’s fifth-generation fighter jet, KAAN, to Pakistan.

Plans for the design and co-production of a new helicopter, though the purpose of the helicopter has not been disclosed.

Zoom out

The Pak-Turk Industrial Expo Joint Working Group meetings have been held twice yearly since 2019, alternating between Türkiye and Pakistan. These sessions are pivotal in strengthening bilateral relations and advancing strategic defense and technology partnerships.

This KAAN fighter jet looks like a good product.

We should work with Turkey to make our own 5th generation fighter.

 

[zhanlong]

1. Production quantity?

2. How many are there now?

3. Annual production capacity?

 

[K2RULEZ]

Well, we've missed the mark to get any sort of workshare or influence on TFX. We kinda just have to take the final product if we did, unless we can make it seem like were not all that interested anymore, enabling the turks to then aim to sweeten any deals offered to us, i.e production line, workshare, offsets etc

Why didn't we decide to participate initially? I am just trying to understand how we can miss such an opportunity when it is up for grabs?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The Indians are scratching their heads. Also with naval acquisitions. Frigates and subs. Where is Pakistan getting all this money from?

The Pak Deep State spends, and the Bharatis keep the books.....

According to the Turkish media sources, even the likes of LM, Boeing, Airbus etc. got surprised at finding g the advances manufacturing facilities at the TAI. Especially, the level of impeccable manufacturing, meticulous quality control by thorough testing, and overall tne dedication of the workforce can beat its peers. The Pak side has made the right choice....