When Musharraf crossed LoC | Shocking Kargil War facts | Vikram Jit Singh

[Zarvan]

Vikram Jit Singh is a distinguished journalist and columnist. With a career spanning several decades, he has gained recognition for his in-depth reporting and analysis on defense and security issues.Singh served as a war correspondent, notably covering the Kargil War and counter-terrorism operations in Kashmir from 1997 to 1999 and again in 2004. His frontline experiences during these conflicts have provided him with unique insights into military operations and the challenges faced by the Indian armed forces.In addition to his written work, Singh is a TV analyst specializing in defense, where he offers expert commentary and analysis on current military and security affairs.

 

[LeGenD]

Musharraf had balls unlike all armchair generals lol. He was a fighter, veteran, and a better leader than most in Pakistan but his political advisors let him down.

 

[CombatCorner]

It wasn't 3Km but 11Km inside Indian side of LOC. The cherry on the cake is that a Pakistan Army helicopter flew the distance to drop off General Musharaf and others returned and then went back the next day to pick up the PA commander and other officers.

Musharraf 'spent a night in India ahead of Kargil conflict'

Weeks before hostilities erupted between Indian and Pakistani troops in the Kargil sector in 1999, Gen. Pervez Musharraf spent a night at a location 11 km inside Indian territory.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[agidest]

Musharraf had balls unlike all armchair generals lol. He was a fighter, veteran, and a better leader than most in Pakistan but his political advisors let him down.

I don't think he was a better leader. As the leader he did not pivot Pakistan into investing in education, tax reforms, promotion of industry. He did not even bother to figure out the consequences of what would happen if he failed in Kargil or how India would respond. In his book he famously wrote that India 'over reacted' instead of taking responsibility that he miscalculated.

This is not a jab at you but Pakistani definitions of 'good leader' etc is just who is more obstinate, who takes risks, who hunts for military glory without regard for consequences. It's a very very skewed definition and is why you get the leaders you do get.

 

[KAAFIR]

Musharraf had balls unlike all armchair generals lol. He was a fighter, veteran, and a better leader than most in Pakistan but his political advisors let him down.

He was a bad planner. Not only kargil but everything.

 

[CombatCorner]

I don't think he was a better leader. As the leader he did not pivot Pakistan into investing in education, tax reforms, promotion of industry. He did not even bother to figure out the consequences of what would happen if he failed in Kargil or how India would respond. In his book he famously wrote that India 'over reacted' instead of taking responsibility that he miscalculated.

This is not a jab at you but Pakistani definitions of 'good leader' etc is just who is more obstinate, who takes risks, who hunts for military glory without regard for consequences. It's a very very skewed definition and is why you get the leaders you do get.

All leaders have their plus and minus
For you Indra Gandhi was a good leader but she trampled the sanity of the Golden Temple and paid with her life.
Modi is another example, in many circles, he's known as butcher of Gujrat, fooled Indians with the so called surgical strikes and teaching Pakistan a lesson, when that didn't work, threatened with missile strikes.
Cow vigilante and lynching justice gone through the roof during his tenures .
As the saying goes, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

 

[agidest]

All leaders have their plus and minus
For you Indra Gandhi was a good leader but she trampled the sanity of the Golden Temple and paid with her life.
Modi is another example, in many circles, he's known as butcher of Gujrat, fooled Indians with the so called surgical strikes and teaching Pakistan a lesson, when that didn't work, threatened with missile strikes.
Cow vigilante and lynching justice gone through the roof during his tenures .
As the saying goes, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

I think you've misunderstood me. You think because I'm Indian, I have an axe to grind against Musharraf because he did Kargil. Or about terrorism this or that. That is incorrect.

I've said that leaders are a reflection of what society values. E.g., Indians valued socialism and almost communism and so we got a leaders like Nehru, Indira who were an unmitigated disasters for Indian economy. India would have started its rise and been a developed country or at least at the level of China by now if it hadn't been for our socialist ideals that led to ruin by 1991.

Another example, Indians value education so we got good schools and are working to increase them and/or make them better.

Or that Indians value democracy which is why Indira Gandhi or anyone else could never put martial law or become a dictator.

Similarly Pakistani society values qualities like obstinacy, risk taking, brinkmanship, personal hunts for (military) glory. So typically people who act like that rise to the top and become your leaders.

I am questioning Pakistani society's ideals (i.e., what values constitute good leadership), not the people individually. There is, I believe, a video of Faisal Warraich who talks about this on YouTube, as well.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Musharraf had balls unlike all armchair generals lol. He was a fighter, veteran, and a better leader than most in Pakistan but his political advisors let him down.

Yes he was better. But broadly speaking he was just another general who hurted the country and its people. Violated constitution. And one without any long term strategy to develop a country.

 

[LeGenD]

He was a bad planner. Not only kargil but everything.

The Kargil War was aimed to: (1) Liberate Saichen; and (2) Bring India to the negotiation table to settle the ongoing Kashmir dispute. Both were reasonable goals but Indian response was stronger than expected and Pakistan gave up under mounting international pressure and casualties.

Musharraf reached out to India once again to settle the ongoing Kashmir dispute with dialogue when he was in power but:

Musharraf at Agra Summit: What was his ‘four-point formula’ on Kashmir issue?

Though there was some forward movement on the first day of the summit, the talks soon hit a roadblock. India was not happy with the Pakistan President’s commitment to stopping cross-border terrorism.

indianexpress.com

Musharraf's offer was the greatest level of concession to settle the ongoing Kashmir dispute in a peaceful manner but India refused to entertain it.

Do you think that the IOK is better in its current form with insurgency, heavy militarization, and China making inroads? Perhaps China will help liberate IOK at some point and this is the language that India will understand finally.

 

[LeGenD]

I don't think he was a better leader. As the leader he did not pivot Pakistan into investing in education, tax reforms, promotion of industry. He did not even bother to figure out the consequences of what would happen if he failed in Kargil or how India would respond. In his book he famously wrote that India 'over reacted' instead of taking responsibility that he miscalculated.

This is not a jab at you but Pakistani definitions of 'good leader' etc is just who is more obstinate, who takes risks, who hunts for military glory without regard for consequences. It's a very very skewed definition and is why you get the leaders you do get.

Please check post # 9 above.

Musharraf's tenure is noted for creation of HEC to improve Pakistan's higher education standards, Madrassa reforms, ICT infrastructure, improving living standards with expansion of the Middle class, improving nuclear program and military modernization. He also took sincere steps to dismantle Al-Qaeda Network in the region.

Musharraf was trying to put the country on the right track at a great personal risk but his political advisors convinced him to implement NRO and he lost his appeal consequently.

Musharraf understood what was at stake and what was better for the whole region and now all can see.

His coup was unconstitutional but there were reasons behind it that are documented in his memoir.

Pervez Musharraf was one of Pakistan’s better dictators

A protagonist in the war on terror, the former generalissimo died in Dubai on February 5th

www.economist.com

 

[Anza]

It wasn't 3Km but 11Km inside Indian side of LOC. The cherry on the cake is that a Pakistan Army helicopter flew the distance to drop off General Musharaf and others returned and then went back the next day to pick up the PA commander and other officers.

View attachment 65049

View attachment 65050

Musharraf 'spent a night in India ahead of Kargil conflict'

Weeks before hostilities erupted between Indian and Pakistani troops in the Kargil sector in 1999, Gen. Pervez Musharraf spent a night at a location 11 km inside Indian territory.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Truly he was very brave general .

 

[agidest]

Do you think that the IOK is better in its current form with insurgency, heavy militarization, and China making inroads? Perhaps China will help liberate IOK at some point and this is the language that India will understand finally.

It doesn't matter what concessions Pakistan gives. That offer was still at a time when Pakistan and India were roughly equal in economic and military strength and global influence.

Today, the asymmetry is massive. Any deal has to inherently recognise the reality that India and Pakistan are no longer equal.

To answer your question - yes, Kashmir is far better right now than it was in the 90s where the insurgency was multi-fold stronger and we had no global influence.

 

[nahtanbob]

All leaders have their plus and minus
For you Indra Gandhi was a good leader but she trampled the sanity of the Golden Temple and paid with her life.
Modi is another example, in many circles, he's known as butcher of Gujrat, fooled Indians with the so called surgical strikes and teaching Pakistan a lesson, when that didn't work, threatened with missile strikes.
Cow vigilante and lynching justice gone through the roof during his tenures .
As the saying goes, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Often military officers are good at tactical and operational details but fail to grow into good staff level commanders. Musharraf seems a prime example of that. Or someone pointed out maybe Pakistanis do not think in that paradigm.

Musharraf was a short sighted leader - both civilian and military. He squandered the opportunities after 9/11 to put Pakistan on the right path.

He was obsessed with countering India. He was not going to fool India pretending to be a peacemaker @LeGenD

 

[KAAFIR]

The Kargil War was aimed to: (1) Liberate Saichen; and (2) Bring India to the negotiation table to settle the ongoing Kashmir dispute. Both were reasonable goals but Indian response was stronger than expected and Pakistan gave up under mounting international pressure and casualties.

Musharraf reached out to India once again to settle the ongoing Kashmir dispute with dialogue when he was in power but:

Musharraf at Agra Summit: What was his ‘four-point formula’ on Kashmir issue?

Though there was some forward movement on the first day of the summit, the talks soon hit a roadblock. India was not happy with the Pakistan President’s commitment to stopping cross-border terrorism.

indianexpress.com

Musharraf's offer was the greatest level of concession to settle the ongoing Kashmir dispute in a peaceful manner but India refused to entertain it.

Do you think that the IOK is better in its current form with insurgency, heavy militarization, and China making inroads? Perhaps China will help liberate IOK at some point and this is the language that India will understand finally.

In 99, If I would be on the place of Mussaraf, I would take China in confidence before the attack and made sure China would open the front on Ladhakh region as well as supply all weapons and logistics to Pakistan.
Pakistan could have won some territory that way. But he planned like a kid.
But now in 2024, the Time has changed. China will not attack India on the behalf of Pakistan. There many reasons of that.

 

[ali_raza]

In 99, If I would be on the place of Mussaraf, I would take China in confidence before the attack and made sure China would open the front on Ladhakh region as well as supply all weapons and logistics to Pakistan.
Pakistan could have won some territory that way. But he planned like a kid.
But now in 2024, the Time has changed. China will not attack India on the behalf of Pakistan. There many reasons of that.

Navy……
Bvr…….
Clinten…..
NWO……