Pakistan UAVs News & Discussions

[JamD]

Many of our early drones were essentially Chinese designs that were rebadged, Shaphar 3 is sorta our first completely designed at home project so there will growing pains.

Many? Or just 1.

Absolutely 1. Burraq was a carbon copy of the CH-3. There was a whole fiasco of markering out missiles at IDEAS on the Burraq because presumably the Chinese objected. This was an emergency program to get a UCAV capability in the War on Terror days.

The Shahpar 1 shares the same configuration with Burraq/CH-3 but so do F-22, F-35, J-35, Kaan, KF-21. So it is kind of dull to say Shahpar 1 is CH-3, it really isn't - if you look closely it is quite different. Then Shahpar 2 is so much bigger I don't even know how it could be compared to CH-3 or some Chinese drone that I don't know of. And then Shahpar 3 changed the configuration as well. So I really don't see how Pakistan's UAV program is based on Chinese designs.

I will be the first one to call BS but this argument has no leg to stand on. Shahpar 3, as the name implies, is our 3rd design, not 1st.

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

There are so many UAVs in service. Ideally a larger proportion of these should've been Shahpar variants, which would funnel more money internally than externally and help the development of the program.

Whether akinci, WL2s,TB2s, or CH-4B, we have handful of each, none is a true mainstay. Regardless how many anonymous source in news media claim Pakistan has purchased 40 this and 30 that.

The total MALE fleet most likey barely makes a full strength squadron. The mainstay role was left open for indigenous design, and with no one else on the horizon, S3 is the only logical choice.

The only problem we have had is that since 2015, terrorism has been on the downard trend, which ln my opinion lulled the military leadership into a false sense of security and they chose not to "waste" money on drones. It's only after Karabakh war 2020, Ukraine war 2022, and the second wave of terrorism 2021 onwards, that everyone has crawled back to valuing drones.

In this context, I believe that we can be optimistic in investment by PA atleast. PAF is a toss up and PN will probably wait for better powerplant or dual engine design ideally.

 

[puttputt]

Whether akinci, WL2s,TB2s, or CH-4B, we have handful of each, none is a true mainstay. Regardless how many anonymous source in news media claim Pakistan has purchased 40 this and 30 that.

The total MALE fleet most likey barely makes a full strength squadron. The mainstay role was left open for indigenous design, and with no one else on the horizon, S3 is the only logical choice.

The only problem we have had is that since 2015, terrorism has been on the downard trend, which ln my opinion lulled the military leadership into a false sense of security and they chose not to "waste" money on drones. It's only after Karabakh war 2020, Ukraine war 2022, and the second wave of terrorism 2021 onwards, that everyone has crawled back to valuing drones.

In this context, I believe that we can be optimistic in investment by PA atleast. PAF is a toss up and PN will probably wait for better powerplant or dual engine design ideally.

I'm being a little controversial here, but I'm not sure these Cat-2 and Cat-3 UAVs would ever reach 'mainstay' numbers, whether imported or local. I just haven't seen any force around the world induct these types of drones in large numbers; it still seems as though they're meant for timed COIN/CT strikes rather than blanket CAS coverage. The latter has only been a thing in Ukraine, IIRC, but for everyone else, it's either a COIN/CT asset or, in the PN's case, perhaps a supplementary ISR platform to augment crewed ISR planes.

The drones that would reach mass mainstay numbers are ALCMs, decoy drones, and, in time, loyal wingman drones, IMO.

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

Cat-2 and Cat-3 UAVs would ever reach 'mainstay' numbers, whether imported or local. I just haven't seen any force around the world induct these types of drones in large numbers

Tb2 is the only true CAT-2 drone in the ones I mentioned and Turkiye's has inducted around 200 of them and is inducting TB3 which is also CAT-2.

S3 has just got one foot in CAT-1 but the program will only improve towards bigger and better things if we invest in it. The local defense industry isn't going to deliver a loyal wingman fantasy if the armed forces doesn't even trust it with a tech that came out in ~2015.

Also, our immediate need is COIN. If you can't put your house in order (60% of the country being in civil war), you can forget fighting extended war on the Eastern front let alone with "blanket CAS coverage".

Whether CAT 1, 2 or 3, MALE, HALE, none are meant for contested airspaces against actual Airforces.

In an actual war like Ukraine, it will be whatever you can lob in max numbers and at minimum cost. Loyal wing man's along with the fancy jets will be hiding far from the Frontline like Russians and Ukrainian Airforces.

So just like these drones are meant for coin, "peace" time operations and ISR, loyal wing man's are meant for one or two week long skirmishes. Not extended wars. You will loose them faster then you can build them. That's why both navies stayed home.

In an actual war, on tactical level it will be the FPVs and on operational level shahed and other swarm of loitering munitions. Cheaper the better.

Indians are already on it

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[falcon34]

Thanks to wayback machine:
View attachment 157944

I'm being a little controversial here, but I'm not sure these Cat-2 and Cat-3 UAVs would ever reach 'mainstay' numbers, whether imported or local. I just haven't seen any force around the world induct these types of drones in large numbers; it still seems as though they're meant for timed COIN/CT strikes rather than blanket CAS coverage. The latter has only been a thing in Ukraine, IIRC, but for everyone else, it's either a COIN/CT asset or, in the PN's case, perhaps a supplementary ISR platform to augment crewed ISR planes.

The drones that would reach mass mainstay numbers are ALCMs, decoy drones, and, in time, loyal wingman drones, IMO.

Put Al-rasoob, the newer SDB and Kamenkesh on it and these drones would become potent stand off platforms in contested environments.

 

[Sparten]

Absolutely 1. Burraq was a carbon copy of the CH-3. There was a whole fiasco of markering out missiles at IDEAS on the Burraq because presumably the Chinese objected. This was an emergency program to get a UCAV capability in the War on Terror days.

The Shahpar 1 shares the same configuration with Burraq/CH-3 but so do F-22, F-35, J-35, Kaan, KF-21. So it is kind of dull to say Shahpar 1 is CH-3, it really isn't - if you look closely it is quite different. Then Shahpar 2 is so much bigger I don't even know how it could be compared to CH-3 or some Chinese drone that I don't know of. And then Shahpar 3 changed the configuration as well. So I really don't see how Pakistan's UAV program is based on Chinese designs.

I will be the first one to call BS but this argument has no leg to stand on. Shahpar 3, as the name implies, is our 3rd design, not 1st.

A whole book could be (and should be) written on PA and PAF emergency cpabikity programs on WOT.
Flamingo, an artillery spotter dron,e was pressed into service as a MALE drone since it technically could (just) fly as medium altitude and had the minimum (8) hours needed to be called long endurance. They even tried to arm it, and did field tests with it not too successful.
PAF went for Falco.

 

[Vapnope]

Do we have dedicated FPV drone battalion/s? I haven't seen anything related to FPV drones team in Pakistan armed forces so far.

 

[JamD]

Tb2 is the only true CAT-2 drone in the ones I mentioned and Turkiye's has inducted around 200 of them and is inducting TB3 which is also CAT-2.

Turkey doesnt employ 5 kinds of UAVs like the Tb2, which is why it can have 200. Lets not forget what a global export success it is that lets it be super refined. That is kind of the point I was making. Turkey is a great example here. Our hodge podge approach stifled local program.

S3 has just got one foot in CAT-1 but the program will only improve towards bigger and better things if we invest in it. The local defense industry isn't going to deliver a loyal wingman fantasy if the armed forces doesn't even trust it with a tech that came out in ~2015.

200% the issue here!

Also, our immediate need is COIN. If you can't put your house in order (60% of the country being in civil war), you can forget fighting extended war on the Eastern front let alone with "blanket CAS coverage".

Whether CAT 1, 2 or 3, MALE, HALE, none are meant for contested airspaces against actual Airforces.

In an actual war like Ukraine, it will be whatever you can lob in max numbers and at minimum cost. Loyal wing man's along with the fancy jets will be hiding far from the Frontline like Russians and Ukrainian Airforces.

So just like these drones are meant for coin, "peace" time operations and ISR, loyal wing man's are meant for one or two week long skirmishes. Not extended wars. You will loose them faster then you can build them. That's why both navies stayed home.

In an actual war, on tactical level it will be the FPVs and on operational level shahed and other swarm of loitering munitions. Cheaper the better.

Indians are already on it

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

So this is the subjective part of my argument but here goes my opinion. You're absolutely right that all of our UAV fleet can only do COIN only. It will get shot down super quickly on the Eastern front. Furthermore, FPVs are definitely part of the solution as seen in Ukraine.

However, there is space for the loyal wingman fantasy as you called it. So firstly, this is designed to be much more survivable than our current UCAVs. So this is is kind of the answer to our current UCAVs not surviving. Secondly, I don't view this as the direct next step for our Shahpar program but the next step for the JF17 or PFX program. Yes the Shahpar program would hugely benefit it but technologically it is closer to a manned jet than a composite UAV with a piston engine.

I admit that it is fanciful to imagine that a force that refuses to wholly invest in the Shahpar program will invest in the Loyal Wingman program. But to that I say they have invested in Azm and PFX which are frankly 100 times more fanciful than a loyal wingman. So maybe channel the effort and money gone/going into Azm/PFX into a loyal wingman UCAV.

I always say that we are both overconfident and underconfident and aircraft development seems to be yet another example of it. Underconfident that we can even do Shahpar and overconfident that we can do Azm and PFX. Both happening simultaneously.

 

[Metal 0-1]

Why dedicated FPV Batt. When you can integrate at Platoon Level. HQ section of Platoon should be take care of Offensive and Defensive FPV Ops.

Do we have dedicated FPV drone battalion/s? I haven't seen anything related to FPV drones team in Pakistan armed forces so far.

 

[Vapnope]

Why dedicated FPV Batt. When you can integrate at Platoon Level. HQ section of Platoon should be take care of Offensive and Defensive FPV Ops.

The question is are we doing it? Do we know what numbers are there?

 

[puttputt]

Turkey doesnt employ 5 kinds of UAVs like the Tb2, which is why it can have 200. Lets not forget what a global export success it is that lets it be super refined. That is kind of the point I was making. Turkey is a great example here. Our hodge podge approach stifled local program.


200% the issue here!


So this is the subjective part of my argument but here goes my opinion. You're absolutely right that all of our UAV fleet can only do COIN only. It will get shot down super quickly on the Eastern front. Furthermore, FPVs are definitely part of the solution as seen in Ukraine.

However, there is space for the loyal wingman fantasy as you called it. So firstly, this is designed to be much more survivable than our current UCAVs. So this is is kind of the answer to our current UCAVs not surviving. Secondly, I don't view this as the direct next step for our Shahpar program but the next step for the JF17 or PFX program. Yes the Shahpar program would hugely benefit it but technologically it is closer to a manned jet than a composite UAV with a piston engine.

I admit that it is fanciful to imagine that a force that refuses to wholly invest in the Shahpar program will invest in the Loyal Wingman program. But to that I say they have invested in Azm and PFX which are frankly 100 times more fanciful than a loyal wingman. So maybe channel the effort and money gone/going into Azm/PFX into a loyal wingman UCAV.

I always say that we are both overconfident and underconfident and aircraft development seems to be yet another example of it. Underconfident that we can even do Shahpar and overconfident that we can do Azm and PFX. Both happening simultaneously.

Yep, and just to reiterate, a loyal wingman would be more of an evolution of our target drone and cruise missile technology, which we already understand fairly well, technologically speaking. Yes, it's a much steeper curve, developmentally speaking, but at least it draws on an existing basis. OTOH, we went into AZB without a single indigenous basis for manned fighter development.

 

[Metal 0-1]

The question is are we doing it? Do we know what numbers are there?

Nah man ain't happening as of now

 

[Oscar]

.

In an actual war, on tactical level it will be the FPVs and on operational level shahed and other swarm of loitering munitions. Cheaper the better.

Indians are already on it

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Speculative - but I feel the partial “success” of EW has made an excessive impression on leadership.

 

[CSAW]

 

[Vapnope]

View attachment 159762

This is an Ai picture. Do we really have this exercise going on?