PTI News, Updates and Discussion

[Forsvaret]

as i understand, democracy is the ruling system chosen by the people who have a intellectual class among their masses!

No. The definition of democracy is simply 'rule by the people' and not by its elite or intellectual class only.

 

[Forsvaret]

question of having intellect comes with the ability to create/generate assets, without which system cannot exist or cannot be/become prosperous!

Which is why it’s essential for people to keep voting in a democracy. Bring in new leadership where the last one fails. That’s how democracy evolves for the better in any normal democratic country—which Pakistan unfortunately isn’t.

 

[Forsvaret]

The question is literacy, its impact on being able to elect the right candidates and then whether that even enables basic democracy at all?

The issue is rather that you can either have a democracy or you cannot. It’s simply pointless and a waste of resources to give people first the right to vote and then not allow them to form govt based on what they voted for!

 

[Oscar]

The issue is rather that you can either have a democracy or you cannot. It’s simply pointless and a waste of resources to give people first the right to vote and then not allow them to form govt based on what they voted for!

Not pointless - it has foreign relations PR benefits when working with nations who do have some sort of democracy.
After all, fake it till you make it or just keep faking it so no one looks is a national characteristic is it not?

 

[Meengla]

What Imran Khan did during VONC was "against the law" — but the way his party’s MNAs were made to switch their loyalties in PDM’s favor — was it really in "accordance with the law"? I am not saying what Imran Khan did at that time was right. But that also doesn’t make the conduct of those PTI MNAs who switched loyalties on establishment’s nod any better.

I am trying not to respond to you because apparently you seem to be paid by someone for every word you post here and that wouldn't surprise me one bit because Indians are on Imran's online bandwagon in a big way. @gamaji
As to your post: With the 'Floor Crossing' rules enforced decades ago, no party's MNA could vote against the central leadership's directive. But Imran, the total stupid guy, himself asked his MNAs to resign after he was ousted as the PM!! So the 'Opposition' in the National Assembly was reduced to a handful of fake opposition members but they still didn't vote AGAINST Imran's directives. You don't know know what you are talking about.
Anyway, at least you seem to agree that Imran, the coward, by throwing out the NCM was 'against the law'. That alone was a grave violation of the Const. of Pakistan but Pakistanis are too lenient, too stupid to not have nabbed, gagged him for that and stupidly allowed the Messiah Khan to tap into Pakistanis' anti-Americanism for one year to gain popularity.

 

[Forsvaret]

Not pointless - it has foreign relations PR benefits when working with nations who do have some sort of democracy.

So Pakistan’s entire 'election exercise' every 5 years is merely a theater for countries who actually have a genuine democracy?

 

[Forsvaret]

Anyway, at least you seem to agree that Imran, the coward, by throwing out the NCM was 'against the law'. That alone was a grave violation of the Const. of Pakistan…

And he actually paid his price for it unlike many in the military establishment who usurped the very same constitution many times.

 

[Oscar]

So Pakistan’s entire 'election exercise' every 5 years is merely a theater for countries who actually have a genuine democracy?

Now we're getting somewhere

Without education, all you are doing is enabling a manipulated electorate for the establishment(feudal/business elite/military/bureaucracy/fat clergy).
IK was an outlier to this in ways but he too had to have this facade manipulated - which is why the term "selected" was not wrong for him even if he does have genuine mass support - the original mass was not enough to get him into office.

When he was finally ousted by this same facade of a system, he objects and refuses to leave - and so the system decides to remove him from the chessboard but because that system in itself is led by incompetence - cannot really make that happen either.

It is a comedy of idiots all around.

 

[Meengla]

And he actually paid his price for it unlike many in the military establishment who usurped the very same constitution many times.

I would be very glad when the crimes done by the Establishment are accounted for. I have no love for them. But one thing I do know is that the Establishment is first, the last and the only line of defense for Pakistan given Pakistan's very precarious geopolitical situation and as long as Pakistan faces several existential threats, I will be on the side of caution and stick with the Establishment.
As for you saying Imran paying some price: No, he was inciting a mini-mutiny in the Pakistani military and that crime can't be ignored. He did so for his own power game and I STRONGLY believe he will be fine with the Establishment if/when he is emancipated. The guy has no morals, no brain, no principles, no ethics and I say that with considerable sadness because I once supported this idiot.

@VCheng : I have just 'Unignored' you; in the Gaza thread, you were too much for me so I couldn't bear. But your posts in this thread are worth pondering. FYI.

 

[Forsvaret]

But one thing I do know is that the Establishment is first, the last and the only line of defense for Pakistan…

Given how that very same establishment lost East Pakistan, lost so many wars to the country’s enemies, lost every chance of building country’s socio-economic future—I hardly find this statement having any roots in reality.

When he was finally ousted by this same facade of a system, he objects and refuses to leave - and so the system decides to remove him from the chessboard but because that system in itself is led by incompetence - cannot really make that happen either.

I’d rather call that 'incompetence' a blessing in disguise.

 

[Respect4Respect]

If we can all accept that including gauging “leadership” based on that. It would make for much better dialogue and discussion. More so it would make more realistic solutions instead of populist claims like “bringing back looted money”. However, that brings the question of democracy in Pakistan z
If populist claims are what is needed to sway opinion and 5 second tik toks work - do the people of Pakistan with their level of education and awareness still really need true democracy?

Is the vote of a published academic the same as that of an individual who is on the streets with no education and a heroin addict? But is brought onto buses to vote for a plate of Biryani?

I have conflicting opinions about this which is why when we talk to democracy and IK or SS - it’s a very slippery slope in rights vs competence vs justice.

That’s my point brother, IK or PTI aren’t farishte they come from the same society as the rest of us. We can’t expect them to be perfect superheroes like in movies, because real life is way more complicated.

I think corruption is a huge issue in Pakistan, but if PTI or any party really wants to bring back looted money, the first step should be strengthening the judiciary and letting it handle those cases properly. Every party has leaned on populist slogans at some point like PMLN had its mega projects and tajurbakari claims, PPP had Roti, Kapra, Makan, and even dictators made bold promises to win over the masses. Populism isn’t something unique to Pakistan and it’s part of politics everywhere in the world.

If we truly want democracy then every citizen’s vote has to carry the same weight. Giving more value to an academic’s vote compared to a laborer’s or even someone struggling with addiction wouldn’t fix the system, it would break it. True, illiteracy is a challenge and so are vote buying and patronage politics, but those are symptoms of weak institutions and poor accountability, not reasons to abandon democracy.

The tension between rights, competence and justice is real, but I believe competence can be improved not by excluding people from the process, but by building stronger institutions and making accountability a priority.

 

[Master Chief]

No. The definition of democracy is simply 'rule by the people' and not by its elite or intellectual class only.

@Mighty_Dragon_Strike has actually explained the limitations of your definition of "democracy" very astutely.

No such animal as "democracy" even exists, nor can it exist. Whatever you see in western countries is in fact somewhere along the spectrum of oligocracy or plutocracy (rule by elite and controlling classes). In the Muslim world, western nations are happy to push the same types of government with even more restrictions or even mob rule (ochlocracy) in order to sustain external influence. Look at Iraq, Syria etc where western influence has not brought "democracy" but rather rule by the strongest and most compliant mafia available.

But the explanation of why "democracy in Pakistan" is a fundamentally flawed aspiration (and is in fact, one that is pushed by malevolent western nations who themselves know full well they will never practice what they preach ) does not end there. There is more to be said yet.

A reasonable "democratic choice" of leadership can only be made when the following conditions are satisfied:
1. Absolute and free access to all information that is required to enable said choice.
2. An electorate that has the prerequisite education level and capacity to make an informed choice.

There's more.

Even then, fulfilling all the above theoretical criteria (which cannot possibly be attained btw), the reasonable choice is still dependent on the absence of biasing factors (e.g. sycophantism, foreign interference).

Democracy never once existed in pure form in any society in the world. Even the ancient Greeks knew this. The cult of democracy is pushed on lesser nations like Pakistan in order to exploit them via either a ruling elite, an incorrigible mob, or an idolised individual. All are equally corruptible. There is a very good reason that India and Afghanistan bark loudest for Mr Khan to return to power.

Pakistan needs to do what is best for Pakistan. I do not pretend to know what that is. However, many of us now know what that isn't.

 

[diaspora]

Imran Khan does not come first in my calculus, neither does Asim Munir, nor in fact does any one person or any group of persons.

All that matters is the idea and the ideology that underpins the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Whoever cultivates anything that brings harm to this will reap a bitter harvest.

It would all be for nothing if the civil-military issue doesn't resolve itself.

Khan was okay with Faiz and Bajwa putting him in power, but Khan is abusive to Asim for putting Shahbaz into power.

Double standards?

The "Khan nai tau kuch nahin" mantra is also insulting to the 240m people that call Pakistan home.

Pakistan first.... but in Khan's playbook, it's him first and if not him then it's nothing...and the army is the greatest villian of all. As a people we lap it all up because historically our army has left us plenty to fault them with. 1965 and 1971 being the greatest f**k-up of all time. Sheikh Mujib was also just like IK, btw. He was uncompromising. He got killed in 1975 by the very people who rallied behind him. Breaking countries is dirty work. If Khan's ultimate play is a seprate Pashtunistan and merger into Greater Afghanistan his victories will be short-lived.

 

[Respect4Respect]

Without education, all you are doing is enabling a manipulated electorate for the establishment(feudal/business elite/military/bureaucracy/fat clergy).

True, but who will actually fix the education system to raise literacy? Pakistan has long been controlled by the establishment and some powerful families. Why would they allow real reforms when an informed electorate would weaken their grip on power? the answer might be strong independent institutions, but that raises another dilemma, who will strengthen those institutions when the current weak system serves the interests of those in control?

 

[Forsvaret]

Pakistan needs to do what is best for Pakistan. I do not pretend to know what that is. However, many of us now know what that isn't.

I am not really asking to bring Westen-style democracy in Pakistan as Pakistan ain’t a western country and what works there simply won’t work here. All I am asking is do something differently because for the past 70+ years, Pakistani people’s sanctity of vote has been repeatedly violated, and because of that, this country is always in a state of perpetual political crisis.