AMCA vs KAAN vs KF-21 India Turkey & Korea’s Fighter Jets Battle For Air Supremacy—Who Leads The Pack? OP-ED

[zzw001]

The EU does not have high thrust engines. Only the United States (F135, F119, F110), China (WS-15, WS-10), and Russia (AL41F1) have military high thrust engines in the world.

Many countries, such as France, the United Kingdom, Germany, Spain, Japan, South Korea, and others, have attempted to develop high thrust engines, but ultimately failed. Türkiye and India are still trying to enter the track.

We can summarize the reasons for the failure of high thrust engine projects in various countries.

Firstly, it requires top-level technological capabilities and a complete industrial ecosystem. It requires top-notch materials science, such as the manufacturing of single crystal blades, ceramic matrix composites, and other top-level materials. It also requires the ability for precision manufacturing and assembly. It also requires the system integration capability of hundreds of technical units including aerodynamics, thermodynamics, structural strength, etc. It also requires expensive and scarce facilities such as high-altitude platforms to conduct tens of thousands of hours of complete machine experiments.

Secondly, developing a high thrust engine requires a significant long-term investment of funds. Usually, an annual investment of over 2 billion US dollars is required, and a project typically lasts for more than 20 years. For example, the United States has invested over $100 billion in high thrust engine projects over the past 50 years.

Thirdly, due to the enormous investment of funds and time, the development process is very painful and unproductive, so the developing country needs a stable environment and national strategy that transcends economic and political cycles. Cannot be interrupted due to economic crisis or government changes.

If Turkey could successfully develop high-thrust engines in the short term, it would be a proud miracle indeed. But our current skepticism is logical. Because if Turkey really had such strength, it should be the British who bought fighter jets from Turkey, not the other way around. The British have already failed in the high-thrust engine, and Britain has failed three times (BS100, RB106, TSR-2).

EU had high thrust low bypass afterburning turbofan engines back in the day (M53, Spey, Olympus used on the Concorde etc.). It is spurious to claim that RR (even if we are not sure about Safran) does not have the technical capabilities today to make a F119 / WS15 / AL51 peer - it might take some time but RR has the capabilities. The Trent series for civilian aircrafts all boast significantly larger core than any military turbofans. RR was also a key contributor to the F120 / 136 programs and has been running its own ACE program. EJ200 is technologically comparable to F119 even (just on a smaller core, but RR has no problem making significantly larger cores than even F135 as you see with the Trents) and if you throw enough money at RR it can be developed into the EJ270 with similar thrust level to earlier F110s / AL31s.

What Europe currently lacks are funding and use case for a low bypass high thrust afterburning turbofan but RR is still likely the third best turbofan OEM on the whole behind only GE / PW. With more funding and time I am sure China will leapfrog RR (and even the Americans) but for now RR is still slightly ahead.

 

[MH.Yang]

I showed you British engine technologies
and dont worry , The UK led consortium has started developing next gen turbofan Engine to power the GCAP Fighter Jet

The UK has enough technology and experience to do it

When you spend a whole day looking and can only find a civilian engine technology that has been hibernating to substantiate the UK's engine technology, answer is actually quite obvious. You just don't want to accept the facts.

 

[MH.Yang]

EU had high thrust low bypass afterburning turbofan engines back in the day (M53, Spey, Olympus used on the Concorde etc.). It is spurious to claim that RR (even if we are not sure about Safran) does not have the technical capabilities today to make a F119 / WS15 / AL51 peer - it might take some time but RR has the capabilities. The Trent series for civilian aircrafts all boast significantly larger core than any military turbofans. RR was also a key contributor to the F120 / 136 programs and has been running its own ACE program. EJ200 is technologically comparable to F119 even (just on a smaller core, but RR has no problem making significantly larger cores than even F135 as you see with the Trents) and if you throw enough money at RR it can be developed into the EJ270 with similar thrust level to earlier F110s / AL31s.

What Europe currently lacks are funding and use case for a low bypass high thrust afterburning turbofan but RR is still likely the third best turbofan OEM on the whole behind only GE / PW. With more funding and time I am sure China will leapfrog RR (and even the Americans) but for now RR is still slightly ahead.

The engine technology of RR is certainly superior, but the UK does not have urgent military needs like the US, China, and Russia. The UK's needs are more focused on commercial use. This leads to RR's technological advantage not in maximum thrust, but in a series of technologies represented by the three rotor structure.

RR has won the commercial and civilian engine market through technologies such as fuel efficiency, reliability, service life, and low noise. As for the high thrust engine field, RR company had already exposed its limitations during the RB211 project.

I would like to use this analogy: RR company is like a company that designs engines for hybrid buses for fuel efficiency and comfort, and it can earn profits through a large number of commercial orders. But fighter jets are like F1 racing cars that require rapid drifting and sprinting, and they are not suitable for RR from a design perspective.

From certain angles, RR's technology is of course superior to China's, even more superior than the United States. But from a certain angle, it not superior. It is more suitable for making money than for war.

 

[MMM-E]

When you spend a whole day looking and can only find a civilian engine technology that has been hibernating to substantiate the UK's engine technology, answer is actually quite obvious. You just don't want to accept the facts.

No need to spend a whole day
Whole world knows about ROLLS ROYCE which has far better technology than China

Now The UK develops new gen military turbofan Engine to power the GCAP
but China only can dream about 85.000 - 110.000 lbf turbofan Engines and China can not develop it

to develop 30.000 - 35.000 lbf military turbofan Engine is not problem for Rolls Royce

 

[MH.Yang]

No need to spend a whole day
Whole world knows about ROLLS ROYCE which has far better technology than China

Now The UK develops new gen military turbofan Engine to power the GCAP
but China only can dream about 85.000 - 110.000 lbf turbofan Engines and China can not develop it

to develop 30.000 - 35.000 lbf military turbofan Engine is not problem for Rolls Royce

Once again, the UltraFan does have 85000lbf, but it is a civilian engine, an engine for wide body aircraft! And the UltraFan project has even been frozen!

Don't lie, GCAP will use Europe's newly developed 13t (28600lbf) engine, which has weaker thrust than WS-10C(14.5t 32000lbf) and F110(14.6t 32200lbf).

The thrust of WS-15 is 18.5t (40800lbf), and the thrust of F135 is 19.5t (43000lbf), and they are military engines.


btw: 13t still belongs to medium-thrust engines. The threshold of large thrust engines is 14t.

 

[Merzifonlu]

TF35000 is not comparable to China's J-35 engines (WS-19, WS-21) since it is larger size than the engines on a J-35. Instead, it can compare with the WS-10C or WS-15.

True. In terms of thrust class, we can definitely say it's the WS-15. Of course, the WS-15 is currently in production, while the TF35000 hasn't even been ignition for the first time. We'll wait and see what happens.

 

[MH.Yang]

The lies are belong to Chinese members who said the KAAN is ultra nationalistic propaganda ( plastic mock up ) and KAAN can not fly before 2040


The UK , Italy , Japan develops 35.000 lb class turbofan Engine to power the GCAP

Please review my speech record again. I did not say that KAAN cannot fly before 2040. What I'm saying is that KAAN will enter service earlier than KF-21, but its engine will be compromised.


What I'm saying is that KAAN won't be able to use TF35000 for flights before 2040!

 

[MMM-E]

What I'm saying is that KAAN won't be able to use TF35000 for flights before 2040!

We dont care about Chinese members on PDF
in 2019-2020 , They said same things about the KAAN
( KAAN can not fly before 2040 ) but KAAN made the first flight on February 21, 2024

We care about Turkish TAI and TEI which says the KAAN will start test flights with the TF-35.000 engine in 2029

everybody will see what will happen until 2030 .... wait and see

 

[MH.Yang]

We dont care about Chinese members on PDF
in 2019-2020 , They said same things about the KAAN
( KAAN can not fly before 2040 ) but KAAN made the first flight on February 21, 2024

We care about Turkish TAI and TEI which says the KAAN will start test flights with the TF-35.000 engine in 2029

everybody will see what will happen until 2030 .... wait and see

So our argument is about the preparation time of TF35000, not KAAN. Don't change the subject.

 

[Faithfulguy]

I think the most difficult part should be the political and economic stability. Actually, the technical aspect can be solved by international cooperation, and the investment and time can be solved by extending the development time.

However, the long-term large investment and zero output may lead to the termination of the project due to the replacement of the government or the economic downturn cycle, and all the efforts will be wasted. This is also the main reason for the failure of European, Japanese, and South Korean countries.

To be honest, I think Turkey should adopt medium-thrust engines like EU countries to promote the KAAN project. It is somewhat radical and risky to directly adopt the design of large thrust engines.

Exactly. Turkey is the only country trying to build a high thrust engine without first creating a medium thrust engine. A lot of industrialized countries with long history of developing medium thrust turbofan engine such as Britain, France and Japan cannot develop a high thrust engine. And this guy is bragging that Turkey with no true engine development background can develop one. This is an example of can’t even crawl but trying to fly. As delusional as the bragging Indians. Not worth taking him seriously.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Yes, it's true that we didn't design and produce a 20,000 lbf class engine. Instead, we jumped straight into designing and producing a 35,000 lbf class engine. Naturally, this might seem like pure fantasy to outsiders, especially the Chinese members observing us.

However, don't forget that we were already manufacturing everything for the GE F110 engine under license, except for the combustion chamber. In other words, we have the manufacturing expertise for high-power turbofan engines. We're not starting from scratch as it might appear.

What we're missing are the principles of the combustion chamber and afterburner. To address this, we're working on the TF-10000 engine to practically learn these principles, and honestly, progress with the TF-10000 engine has been faster than anticipated.

Of course, despite all this, things could still go wrong. We'll just have to wait and see. Fortunately, we won't have to wait too long. By around 2029, we'll know if we, the Turks, can achieve this. By then, the TF35000 engine should reliably produce at least 20,000 lbf dry thrust and 30,000 lbf wet thrust. If we haven't hit those numbers by 2019, then we've fvcked-up!

 

[MMM-E]

And this guy is bragging that Turkey with no true engine development background can develop one.

Turkiye has developed KAAN 5th gen Fighter Jet with no Fighter Jet development background can develop one

in record time , from zero to the 5th gen Fighter Jet ... what a production quality

now I laugh at DEINO and Chinese Members who said KAAN can not fly before 2040


Turkiye is not India or China
Turkiye is a part of high quality Western World ( NATO )

 

[Deino]

I am talking about the TF-35.000 which will start test flight with KAAN in 2029



The biggest BragRat is China

@Musings reported for trolling and my friend! Just one short advice: Shut the f..k up; China is not bragging, but working and none of its members here does but it is an insult against any Chinese, any rationale thinking member - especially the Chinese ones which are trying patiently to explain to you - to again and again read you bragging, lies and open insults!

The only - to quote you - "BragRat" here in the forum is you since any post of you is not only offensive but always as if you get money for any such propaganda post!

Stop this BS and shut up.

 

[Deino]

Turkiye has developed KAAN 5th gen Fighter Jet with no Fighter Jet development background can develop one

in record time , from zero to the 5th gen Fighter Jet ... what a production quality

now I laugh at DEINO and Chinese Members who said KAAN can not fly before 2040
View attachment 158141

Turkiye is not India or China
Turkiye is a part of high quality Western World ( NATO )

Exactly another lie! I never said this! You are a troll, a braggart and liar!

@Musings

 

[MMM-E]

The only - to quote you - "BragRat" here in the forum is you since any post of you is not only offensive but always as if you get money for any such propaganda post!

You also called KAAN project is ultra nationalistic propaganda

and We kicked you with KAAN first flight by 2024
You have no shame ans still you are trolling here

There is no any Turkish propaganda project and TF-35.000 is not propaganda


another Chinese member called Turkiye BragRat

Do you want the international community to perceive Turkey as a bragging country? Such as getting a nick name like BragRat.