Army Chief tenure to reset with CDF appointment

[Oscar]

Abhi jamhuriat kay rakhwalay jo in ki chabloosi main agay agay hain.

Which is what I keep saying - the establishment is NOT JUST THE MILITARY
Nor is it all of the military
There is a mindset - that was inculcated and cultivated by the British.
That was specific to particular regions both in Pakistan proper and also from the bureaucracy and military that came to Pakistan from all over India.
That mindset is into aitcheson, it into LGS, it’s in Beaconhouse, its in the elite of Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi. And it also percolates in staff college and so on.

That is your establishment.

 

[UndercoverJIX]

Lol I haven't even begun yet, I have merely pointed out the contradiction in your thought, and if it hit a nerve with you then may be your thought requires more prudence?



Anyhow, if the argument is that there was NO way to avoid interfere then how does the interference occurs shouldn't be a concern. In simpler terms, a sin is a sin whether committed openly or in private.

Please begin, lets hear it, if Kawwa is halaal or Haraam.

Zina is Haraam, its happening allover,
can you stop it?
You want it to start happening openly all over or you think its better this haraam act stay hidden. Please think carefully and answer.

Do you want me to explain more, if yes, than please ask specific question and i will.

So, being intellectual is one thing and being disconnected from present and reality is another, using brain to understand statements and discussions is not so hard, if we stay in touch with ground realities.

I am sorry for long @$$ reply.

 

[hnn]

Please begin, lets hear it, if Kawwa is halaal or Haraam.

Zina is Haraam, its happening allover,
can you stop it?
You want it to start happening openly all over or you think its better this haraam act stay hidden. Please think carefully and answer.

Do you want me to explain more, if yes, than please ask specific question and i will.

So, being intellectual is one thing and being disconnected from present and reality is another, using brain to understand statements and discussions is not so hard, if we stay in touch with ground realities.

I am sorry for long @$$ reply.

One can at least call a wrong, a wrong. The point you made in your first post was that you're only calling FM's manipulation bad because he did it openly, and wouldn't have called it bad if it was done behind curtains.

So it's not about stopping what's going on or have been going on. If you think FM's manipulation and power grab is wrong, then you can't say "had it done it covertly I wouldn't have called it bad"

Also, it's not about being disconnected from reality as much as being disconnected with principles.

Also, since we haven't interacted before, I want to make it clear that I am against FM's constitutional immunity, but then again I'm against any such immunity whether granted/grabbed openly or not.

We are talking about the FM and the new CDF structure, and I found a contradiction in your argument against the new structure and merely pointed it out, there's no need to take it personally

 

[UndercoverJIX]

One can at least call a wrong, a wrong. The point you made in your first post was that you're only calling FM's manipulation bad because he did it openly, and wouldn't have called it bad if it was done behind curtains.

So it's not about stopping what's going on or have been going on. If you think FM's manipulation and power grab is wrong, then you can't say "had it done it covertly I wouldn't have called it bad"

Also, it's not about being disconnected from reality as much as being disconnected with principles.

Also, since we haven't interacted before, I want to make it clear that I am against FM's constitution immunity, but then again I'm against any such immunity whether granted/grabbed openly or not.

We are talking about the FM and the new CDF structure, and I found a c contradiction in your argument against the new structure and merely pointed it out, there's no need to take it personally

LOL nothing personal.
My example stands, We all know its wrong and it will remain wrong.

Main issue what I see with FM Sab is, by doing opening he has divided the nation and turn sizable chunk into anti Army or Army hatters.
This is the reason, I said, staying behind the scenes/curtains is and was better, Because it happened before and is happening now and we Pakistanis cant do anything about it.

My example.

I hope I am able to make you understand in my gulabi english, i am a paindo jahil.

 

[hnn]

LOL nothing personal.
My example stands, We all know its wrong and it will remain wrong.

Glad there's no enmity here!

Main issue what I see with FM Sab is, by doing opening he has divided the nation and turn sizable chunk into anti Army or Army hatters.
This is the reason, I said, staying behind the scenes/curtains is and was better, Because it happened before and is happening now and we Pakistanis cant do anything about it.

Here's what I'd say - FM did what a bunch of Generals before him had done too and that is 1) Get rid of a civilian government and 2) Power grab for themselves by changing the constitution - he's done nothing different - and the constitutional immunity is a learning curve like how Gen Musharraf learnt from Gen Zia's mistake and had a longer running civilian government under him to mask the Dictatorship as a "Benevolent Dictatorship" compared to Zia's more stricter version - but they both fell out of power and didn't get "happily ever after", one was assassinated, and the other self exiled - so FM has learned and hence the constitutional immunity. The anti-army sentiment began with Imran's ouster during Gen Bajwa's tenure, PTI played dirty politics the whole next year and maligned army (same as other political leaders before him) - even today FM's constitutional immunity is mostly hated by PTI loyalists only.

Edited Disclaimer: I'm against FM's constitutional immunity for those who haven't interacted with me before

I hope I am able to make you understand in my gulabi english, i am a paindo jahil.

Ese na bolo yawr! muj ko b thora thora Urdu wala partay kerna ata ha LOL

 

[UndercoverJIX]

Glad there's no enmity here!



Here's what I'd say - FM did what a bunch of Generals before him had done too and that is 1) Get rid of a civilian government and 2) Power grab for themselves by changing the constitution - he's done nothing different - and the constitutional immunity is a learning curve like how Gen Musharraf learnt from Gen Zia's mistake and had a longer running civilian government under him to mask the Dictatorship as a "Benevolent Dictatorship" compared to Zia's more stricter version - but they both fell out of power and didn't get "happily ever after", one was assassinated, and the other self exiled - so FM has learned and hence the constitutional immunity. The anti-army sentiment began with Imran's ouster during Gen Bajwa's tenure, PTI played dirty politics the whole next year and maligned army (same as other political leaders before him) - even today FM's constitutional immunity is mostly hated by PTI loyalists only.

Edited Disclaimer: I'm against FM's constitutional immunity for those who haven't interacted with me before



Ese na bolo yawr! muj ko b thora thora Urdu wala partay kerna ata ha LOL

Thanks for the history lecture,
PTI is not the first, Do you remember PPP and PMLN slogans against Army??? Army hate was still by Political leaders, atleast upto cetain level, because Army did not come out and shoot general public during protests, Police was used.

But Asim Muneer has used Army to shoot, raid homes, abduct women children etc...

FM immunity hurting PTI, because FM ordered to shoot them, and all the above. what do you expect??

 

[UndercoverJIX]

@hnn Thank you very much for you time and sensible exchange of view.
I am done, usually I do not like to talk at this topic but immunity situation forced me.

I apologize if i have said anything bad.

 

[hnn]

Thanks for the history lecture,
PTI is not the first, Do you remember PPP and PMLN slogans against Army??? Army hate was still by Political leaders, atleast upto cetain level, because Army did not come out and shoot general public during protests, Police was used.

Bro, did you miss the part where I said "same as other political leaders before him?" - it's literally in bold and right after where I made PTI point

But Asim Muneer has used Army to shoot, raid homes, abduct women children etc...

FM immunity hurting PTI, because FM ordered to shoot them, and all the above. what do you expect??

Well here's another history lesson then I'm afraid Rangers was used against PTM crackdown during PTI's tenure (civilians died that day too at the hands of the CAF).

And as for the army shooting civilians during the 9th May protest - first of all it was wrong (just want to say that first so you don't miss it again ) but did any political party's worker previously vandalized military cantonments? I'm not defending military's action here but merely pointing out that if lines were crossed they were crossed by both sides - so if A is wrong so is B

 

[hnn]

@hnn Thank you very much for you time and sensible exchange of view.
I am done, usually I do not like to talk at this topic but immunity situation forced me.

I apologize if i have said anything bad.

I can understand and no need to apologize because no lines were crossed, and even if happens I won't go guns blazing on you lol

 

[hnn]

Bro, did you miss the part where I said "same as other political leaders before him?" - it's literally in bold and right after where I made PTI point



Well here's another history lesson then I'm afraid Rangers was used against PTM crackdown during PTI's tenure (civilians died that day too at the hands of the CAF).

And as for the army shooting civilians during the 9th May protest - first of all it was wrong (just want to say that first so you don't miss it again ) but did any political party's worker previously vandalized military cantonments? I'm not defending military's action here but merely pointing out that if lines were crossed they were crossed by both sides - so if A is wrong so is B

I was supposed to write TLP and not PTM but then again both events happened during PTI Tenure

 

[Mr X]

I think Asim Munir has achieved everything. He was the DG ISI, now the Army Chief, Field Marshall and CDF. I think only thing left is to declare himself Master of the Air and Sea. Then he must gracefully retire unless he intends to be the 15th President of Pakistan

 

[hnn]

I think Asim Munir has achieved everything. He was the DG ISI, now the Army Chief, Field Marshall and CDF. I think only thing left is to declare himself Master of the Air and Sea. Then he must gracefully retire unless he intends to be the 15th President of Pakistan

Sir perhaps he only became FM and now CDF because he wasn't allowed to enjoy being DG ISI

Trauma runs deep, how deep is his, we'll see - he may become the 1st COMIP (Commander Indo-Pak)

 

[Blain2]

1. You are correct, nothing makes any difference for him, He is a man on a mission.

2. Correct again, hence the question, Why FM, then CDF and immunity for live. No COAS ever tried to amend the constitution for his personal immunity.

2. If we depending on a single person to achieve all the goals, then our institutions have failed, stopped producing Leaders, commanders, tacticians and fighters, So its not a time or matter to glorify and feel proud.....and rest you know better then me....whos responsibility is to create successors....

Please see this post specifically for your point #2.

On your #3, you and many other PTI supporters are fixated on the person of Asim Munir. The role of CDF has nothing to do with immunity for life. That is something that has been granted to the title of FM because of Asim Munir (for reasons that I have already highlighted in my response to your point #2. Do see the original post linked). PTI has developed an enmity towards two army chiefs and the establishment (current political-military dispensation) is now taking measures to safeguard its ability to move forward without IK/PTI and also the threats of its policies etc. being undone by the PTI/IK.

The role of the CDF is a purely professional, military-centric one that will strengthen the military institution, cut down on wastage, foster "jointness" and enhance the military's offensive and defensive capabilities.

 

[Ak01]

Eternal leaders of North Korea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

our first

 

[Blain2]

Eternal leaders of North Korea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

our first

View attachment 159520

Mubarak!
Have to give it to NK's great leader, the country is spic and span clean! Maybe ours will do the same.