Army Chief tenure to reset with CDF appointment

Please see this post specifically for your point #2.

On your #3, you and many other PTI supporters are fixated on the person of Asim Munir. The role of CDF has nothing to do with immunity for life. That is something that has been granted to the title of FM because of Asim Munir (for reasons that I have already highlighted in my response to your point #2. Do see the original post linked). PTI has developed an enmity towards two army chiefs and the establishment (current political-military dispensation) is now taking measures to safeguard its ability to move forward without IK/PTI and also the threats of its policies etc. being undone by the PTI/IK.

The role of the CDF is a purely professional, military-centric one that will strengthen the military institution, cut down on wastage, foster "jointness" and enhance the military's offensive and defensive capabilities.

Great post. As usual.
The role of the CDF is not for some lifelong immunity or even lifelong appointment. Some of the changes are for operational purposes, probably learned from the recent encounter with India and to prepare for another (and major) conflict with India; I think @hnn gave some very good explanation several pages ago.

The Army Chiefs in Pakistan have remained 'immune' anyway unless a sitting PM has a death wish. Just look at how Musharraf was whisked away from the clutches of Nawaz to safety. Besides, Imran is promising 'no vendetta' if hoisted back to power (not that anyone believes a word he says).
But, of course, by zeroing in on the personality of Asim Munir, some forum members are cheapening the discussion.
 
Which is what I keep saying - the establishment is NOT JUST THE MILITARY
Nor is it all of the military
There is a mindset - that was inculcated and cultivated by the British.
That was specific to particular regions both in Pakistan proper and also from the bureaucracy and military that came to Pakistan from all over India.
That mindset is into aitcheson, it into LGS, it’s in Beaconhouse, its in the elite of Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi. And it also percolates in staff college and so on.

That is your establishment.
Oscar, I would add to this so-called "Establishment" in that it exists in most countries that have significant security-centric policies/footprint. As you rightly say, it is comprised of not just the military, but also those who see things eye-to-eye sitting in the political, bureaucratic, industrial arenas among others and ensure continuity of the est. policies.

In many countries, instead of being called "Establishment", this entity is referred to as the "deep-state". This deep state exists and operates in the US, UK, India and countless other countries. Its job is to make sure that certain red-lines (that it deems to be inviolable) will not be crossed by anyone and continuity in the country's overall outlook remains.
 
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Thanks for the history lecture,
PTI is not the first, Do you remember PPP and PMLN slogans against Army??? Army hate was still by Political leaders, atleast upto cetain level, because Army did not come out and shoot general public during protests, Police was used.

But Asim Muneer has used Army to shoot, raid homes, abduct women children etc...

FM immunity hurting PTI, because FM ordered to shoot them, and all the above. what do you expect??
Oh yara, why are you so militant and abrupt in your responses? That poor chap Hnn is no Asim Munir...thoday thanday ho jao yar! :-D

Asim Munir has not used the "Army" to shoot anyone, army has not raided anyone's homes. ISI/Police are not the Army. And the actions you ascribe mistakenly to the army have been done many times over in the history of Pakistan using the very same state apparatus which isn't the professional army operating in chownis and garrisons.

I won't go back to the previous century, but you did not complain about it when this apparatus was used to put down MQM walay, you did not have any qualms about the roughing up and kidnapping of the PML leadership by this very same apparatus...you were quiet when this very same apparatus was being used in Balochistan and KP during PTI's government. So this apparatus is bad just because it is being used against a party that you have hamdardi for. Rest be damned.

Also, factually speaking, army did not even shoot when the PTI hooligans attacked the GHQ, burnt down armed forces residences, other state and military facilities and desecrated martyrs monuments.
 
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Asim Munir has not used the "Army" to shoot anyone, army has not raided anyone's homes. ISI/Police are not the Army. And the actions you ascribe mistakenly to the army have been done many times over in the history of Pakistan using the very same state apparatus.

I won't go back to the previous century, but you did not complain about it when this apparatus was used to put down MQM walay, you did not have any qualms about the roughing up and kidnapping of the PML leadership by this very same apparatus...you were quiet when this very same apparatus was being used in Balochistan and KP during PTI's government. So this apparatus is bad just because it is being used against a party that you have hamdardi for. Rest be damned.

Also, factually speaking, army did not even shoot when the PTI hooligans attacked the GHQ, burnt down armed forces residences, other state and military facilities and desecrated martyrs monuments.

Once again a great post.
Also the myths/propaganda floating around by Imran's supporters is that in their latest march on Islamabad where Imran's Oh-not-so-political wife was leading, a 'genocide' happened and hundreds were killed and their bodies secretly taken away and buried and all the blood on the streets of Islamabad was washed off. Even a medical doctor in my American university's WhatsApp group claimed all that. A medical doctor!!
Boy if these people had used their propaganda power's 1/10th against India instead of the so-called anti-Establishment rhetoric which was suddenly planted to their heads after Bajwa refused to intervene on behalf of Imran for the No Confidence Motion.
 
Oscar, I would add to this so-called "Establishment" exists in most countries that have significant security-centric policies/footprint. As you rightly say, it is comprised of not just the military, but also those who see things eye-to-eye sitting in the political, bureaucratic, industrial arenas among others and ensure continuity of the est. policies.

In many countries, instead of being called "Establishment", this entity is referred to as the "deep-state". This deep state exists and operates in the US, UK, India and countless other countries. Its job is to make sure that certain red-lines (that it deems to be inviolable) will not be crossed by anyone and continuity in the country's overall outlook remains.
Exactly - we assume that it is a Pakistani unique phenomenon because this is the context but it is well beyond that.

Pakistan’s ongoing challenges are not unique, but reflect worldwide struggles against self-interest and entrenched elite authority.

The difference lies in how robust systems are built to contain these tendencies. In Pakistan's case, an entrenched 'deep state' led by the military and intelligence services(from the context of having the “gun”) asserted dominant influence from very early on, restricting the development of independent institutions and filtering out attempts at meaningful reform.

This was compounded by low literacy rates and slow social growth, both of which prevented the emergence of a critical mass demanding a self-correcting, participatory system.

Most Pakistanis find themselves focused on securing daily necessities, leaving little room to organize or sustain pressure for genuine democracy or state effectiveness.

Thus, it is not just the existence of self-serving interests, but the persistent absence of effective systems and empowered citizenry, that explains why Pakistan’s state and democracy have repeatedly failed to take root.

Where the military-industrial complex in the US serves as another of the dominant arm of the “deep state” in America - the military serves as THE dominant arm of this deep state.

It is what it is - cannot shy from it.
Just as you cannot shy from why extremism flourishes in Pakistan or why people wont really do any of the true revolutionary movements you see in Nepal or BD or otherwise.

Unless this is recognized, no meaningful change will ever be effective because you are using the wrong medicine.
 
Once again a great post.
Also the myths/propaganda floating around by Imran's supporters is that in their latest march on Islamabad where Imran's Oh-not-so-political wife was leading, a 'genocide' happened and hundreds were killed and their bodies secretly taken away and buried and all the blood on the streets of Islamabad was washed off. Even a medical doctor in my American university's WhatsApp group claimed all that. A medical doctor!!
Boy if these people had used their propaganda power's 1/10th against India instead of the so-called anti-Establishment rhetoric which was suddenly planted to their heads after Bajwa refused to intervene on behalf of Imran for the No Confidence Motion.
This unfortunately is the effect of the echo-chambers created and it seems this is all the worse outside of Pakistan.

If "hundreds" were murdered as they claim, who were they? Where are their families? What are their names? Where do they hail from? Who are their next of kin?

This is akin to the Israeli claims of "babies were burnt and countless women raped by the Palestinians". When the foreign reporters started digging in, nothing credible was found and the claims were debunked.

I empathize and don't agree with the crude repression against PTI leaders and the ham fisted approach, but it has been nothing like the claims made. Yes, people are in the jail, same was the case with the PPP and PML leadership. In many ways, the claims of late come across as a case of "Lahoo laga kar shaheedon may shaamil hona".
 
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It is what it is - cannot shy from it.

My only comment on this entire situation:

General Zia-ul-Mardood's Pakistan has now been perfected. Y'all can go home now, or if you can, leave the country.

The End.

Cue the Qaumi Tarana.
 
My only comment on this entire situation:

General Zia-ul-Mardood's Pakistan has now been perfected. Y'all can go home now, or if you can, leave the country.

The End.

Cue the Qaumi Tarana.
Zai-ul-Haq
That is the most fitting name for him.
 
My only comment on this entire situation:

General Zia-ul-Mardood's Pakistan has now been perfected. Y'all can go home now, or if you can, leave the country.

The End.

Cue the Qaumi Tarana.
Just wondering if you were in Pakistan or USA during General Zia Ul Haq era?
Asking because i lived the entirety of his era from 1979 to 1988. I remember Zulfiqar Bhutto's last speech. I remember Zia Ul Haq First speech and his funeral. I remember him and his era very differently.
 
Just wondering if you were in Pakistan or USA during General Zia Ul Haq era?
Asking because i lived the entirety of his era from 1979 to 1988. I remember Zulfiqar Bhutto's last speech. I remember Zia Ul Haq First speech and his funeral. I remember him and his era very differently.

I saw it all, up close and personal - ALL of it.
 
Everything about CDS is diversion.
Now, since being a civilian duffer I don't know how GHQ or the Office of the CJCOS does it's planning, overt military rule is condemnable globally, so step by step constitutional military rule, though through fake constitutionality.
 
Just wondering if you were in Pakistan or USA during General Zia Ul Haq era?
Asking because i lived the entirety of his era from 1979 to 1988. I remember Zulfiqar Bhutto's last speech. I remember Zia Ul Haq First speech and his funeral. I remember him and his era very differently.
The issue is the path Zia ul Haq set Pakistan on and the fires that he and Musharraf left behind, in which Pakistanis today are still burning.

Was Pakistan stable and peaceful during the Zia era ? Mostly yes but that wasn't due to Zia and if you lived in Peshawar or FATA, you were already bearing the brunt of
blowback from Afghan war.
 
So. Do you not remember how cheap living was? How low was the crime rate? How much better was the economy?

Let us not take this thread off topic. Thanks.

On topic: What has happened here is the expected culmination of the changes set into motion by Gen Zia nearly a half century ago.

There is no going back.
 
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