An Indian Tejas fighter jet crashed during an aerial display at the Dubai Air Show
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Ok got it now. Well I'm also on the "blame the machine" team. I am also not convinced that it was a pilot error because the whole design philosophy for Tejas' FBW and CLAW is the "carefree handling" - so even if the pilot gives an erroneous command, the FBW will limit the input to match the max allowed by CLAW. So e.g. the pilot can't pull more G's than allowed by the system and I think on Mk1 the limit is around 5-5.5
I just can't get my head around the crash being a pilot error, it could be, I mean I'm not an expert but so far what I know about the aircraft points to machine malfunction as the most likely case - some sensor that feeds the FBW or the FBW system itself (considering it's Indian made and they made it very complex to begin with the redundant quadruplex channels) - there's just so many ways the machine could malfunction that it favors the probability of a technical fault more than the pilot error.
Meengla
Elite Member
There is no question about it: Trump has sensed India's weaknesses in not only to 'contain' China, which he hinted toward when he went out of his way to praise Pakistan for nabbing the terrorist who had attacked at the Kabul Airport in August 2021--but he is also capitalizing on India's failures in the aerial war on May 7, 2025 to pressure India for concessions. Some months ago, I had thought, maybe Trump only wanted major trade concessions from India before going back to the 'normal' but I am not sure anymore. Trump's change of heart seems like not something short term.
"We have the money "
Wonder what happened to the "pro-India " tilt of the USA despite the "massive economic relationship " ,
Indians had this miscalculations about China too. The old PDF forum was full of Indians from maybe 10-15 years ago that China couldn't ignore the huge trade benefits with India and so Pakistan would not factor much for China. But Modi's very stupid foreign policy alienated China, resulting in a situation when in the May 2025 conflict, China was almost a direct co-belligerent on behalf of Pakistan!!
Gripen9
Trusted Member
F86 Sabres maintained a 10:1 kill ratio against Mig15 flown by NK/Chinese and Russian pilots. Majority of U.S. losses were WW2 era Mustangs/Corsairs and SkyRaiders. Sabre losses were 78.
Per ChatGPT…
Below is a consolidated historical view of total U.S. military aircraft losses in the Korean War and a comparison with Chinese/North Korean losses. These figures come from widely accepted U.S. Air Force, Navy, DoD, and Chinese sources; numbers vary slightly between historians but are consistent in scale.
Combined U.S. Military Aircraft Losses (All Services)
Total U.S. aircraft lost (USAF + USN + USMC): ~2,000 aircraft
Breakdown by service
Service | Approx. Losses | Notes |
| USAF | ~1,466 | ~1,041 combat, ~425 non-combat |
U.S. Navy | ~564 | Includes carrier-based operations |
U.S. Marine Corps | ~316 | Mostly F4U Corsairs, AD Skyraiders |
Total U.S. aircraft losses in combat:
~1,400 (combat) ~600 (non-combat)Non-combat losses were relatively high due to early-jet reliability and harsh weather operations.
Chinese & North Korean Aircraft Losses
Estimates vary more widely because:
- Chinese PLAAF and North Korean KPAF records were not fully published
- Soviet pilots flew many missions using Chinese markings
However, historians converge on the following:
Chinese + North Korean total aircraft losses:
~2,550–3,000 aircraftCommonly cited estimates:
- PLAAF (China): ~1,600–1,800 lost
- KPAF (North Korea): ~300–400 lost
- Soviet Air Force (flying covertly): ~335–345 lost (unacknowledged officially at the time)
Air-to-Air Kill Comparison (MiG Alley)
U.S. F-86 Sabre vs. MiG-15
- Traditional U.S. claim: 10:1 kill ratio
- Modern archival analysis suggests: ~5:1 or 6:1
- U.S. F-86 losses to MiGs: ~78
- MiG-15 losses to Sabres: ~350–450
Summary Comparison
Aircraft loss totals
Side | Total Aircraft Lost |
| United States (all services) | ~2,000 |
China + North Korea + Soviet pilots | ~2,550–3,000 |
- The U.S. lost fewer aircraft overall, despite flying far more missions, including ground attack and interdiction roles which were much riskier.
- Chinese/North Korean losses were higher, particularly in air-to-air combat, where U.S. jets (especially the F-86 Sabre) had a significant advantage.
Gripen9
Trusted Member
Yes you are right. Maybe my expectations are too high. But these are the times especially when you are honoring a fallen comrade that your discipline shows.
I do understand (and I did state it), that she is grieving the loss of her husband.
Baibers_1260
Trusted Member
Mods please allow this post. ( last one):
These Muslim senior officers in the Indian Armed Forces are now condemned by the " Godi Media " in preference to "Major General" Gagan Deep Singh Bakshi, even though some outrank him, and have more military honors. All are retired and some have passed away but NONE of them have ever been seen on TV screaming curses at Pakistan .
1.Air Chief Marshal Idris Hassan Latif PVSM ( much disliked because of his insistence on good maintenance and training in the Indian Air Force.
2. Lt.General Zameerudin Shah PVSM, ( a much hated figure even though he was deputy chief of army staff, because he stopped the killing of Muslims in Gujarat riots under Modi in 2002 and his soldiers shot over 200 rioters )
3. Lt. Gen. Syed Ata Hasnain PVSM ( He some times comes on TV but doesn't scream curses ).
4. Lt. Gen. Syed Jamil Mehmood, AVSM ( hero of the Sri Lankan war capturing Batticaloa from the LTTE, He was killed in a helicopter crash on a visit to Bhutan )
5. Lt. Gen. Syed Mohammed Ahmed Zaki,PVSM VrC.
( Perhaps one of the most decorated Indian Army commanders in charge of the Northern Command who fought the Siachen campaign and had a face off with China in Ladakh)
6. Lt.Gen. P.M. Hariz PVSM ( Southern Command)
Posthumous honors killed in battle:
- Brigadier Mohammed Usman MVC
- Havaldar Abdul Hamid PVC,
There are many others but those are the prominent ones.
Even the secular westernized Major General Habibullah was packed off to Malaysia as an adviser when their army was being formed after independence. Habibullah was despatched because a break in his service career with a foreign army would reduce his seniority and thus make him ineligible to become the first ( and youngest) Chief of Army Staff.
The India Gate in Delhi is decorated with the names 61,000 soldiers who died with posthumous honors in the two World Wars. One third of these names are those of Muslim soldiers mostly from the region ( Punjab and KPK) which is now in Pakistan. Indian members could confirm if the names are still there or these have been erased as was the plan under the reconfiguration of Delhi monuments under the Hindutva Modi's regime.
UndercoverJIX
Elite Member
Problem I see with Indians is, rebranding everything to put Make in India Tag.
For this purpose, they are mismaching two best available components and calling it Made in India.
India is a poor labour country, they are trying to pretend what they are not. ( same like most of the people now a day)
Only Babus boast, not the real professionls, Operators who really have done and achieved something in their lives.
If they dont do that, then how they will falsly call everything Indegenious?
Time after time its proven that each and every Made in India product is of poor quality and worst workmanship.
In this instance, we have no Idea what kind of samosa it is, Aloo, sabzi, chicken, beef, daal etc...its a mixture. and this type of dish only cook can like or his family under pressure....
Please dont take anything serious whatever I say, Thanks
KingQamaR
Elite Member
Crashed in a leading. airshow caught on camera too. Suppose to demonstrate the engineering capabilities of a nation and India AirForce professionalism and their highly publicised homegrown jet but ended up crashing quite embarrassing . Even last week their air force training aircraft were crashing all over the country. I agree brother, Year 2025 for india has definitely been awful from Indian military disastrous attack on Pakistan to its geo politics failures afterwards!
UndercoverJIX
Elite Member
Tejas going total dead is my take.
Lets imagine for a second, Pilot Blacked out, so in this situation the ejection seat should have auto ejected based on the feature, something called zero zero ejection, Built in this Ejection seat.
Unless total failure, caopy cant open and safety wont allow ejection seat to trigger unless canopy is blasted.
Just my thought.
Muji.Iqbal
Trusted Member
I'm sorry to hear the Indian pilot lost his life. May he rest in peace.
Corax
Registered Member
this guy is a regular contributor to AFM especially related to Iranian affairs…
This has got to be the most pathetic cope of this century, and I'm not surprised it comes from a "Persian", sorry I meant Iranian, backing up the indians. So the poor pilot got bullied like a little kid by the online Chinese and Pakistani community and in order restore honour to his pathic little ego he tried to show off with a modified routine!!! What a load of shite.
maverick
Trusted Member
i dont see Godi media (bastardized media), but i am sure they will be
1) comparing it with JF17, and will be saying its superior to pakistani JFs,
2) they will be talking about pathetic american engine,
3) might be talking about terrible avionics package,
but they will never talk about shortcomings of Tejas that Indian airforce itsself does not want to buy it from HAL.
1) comparing it with JF17, and will be saying its superior to pakistani JFs,
2) they will be talking about pathetic american engine,
3) might be talking about terrible avionics package,
but they will never talk about shortcomings of Tejas that Indian airforce itsself does not want to buy it from HAL.
johukum
Registered Member
It is a known issue that the MiG-21 has faced a higher proportion of incidents during the landing phase of flight, a phenomenon particularly associated with the aircraft's design characteristics. The MiG-21 was originally designed as a high-altitude interceptor, which resulted in a high landing speed that makes descents and runway approaches tricky, especially on short runways. The aircraft's low aspect ratio delta wing design provides little warning (like shudder or wing rocking) to the pilot when it approaches a high angle of attack or a stall, giving a false sense of security before the aircraft becomes difficult to control, particularly at low speeds and low altitudes typical of landing.
On top of ageing and maintenance related issues, spurious aftermarket spares due to collapse of Soviet Union, in the Indian Air Force (IAF), the MiG-21 was often used as an initial supersonic trainer, meaning relatively inexperienced pilots were flying a demanding aircraft. Operational requirements sometimes forced pilots to transition to the MiG-21 without an intermediate jet trainer, leading to a higher incidence of "pilot error" in accident reports.
Having said that, it remains the most iconic fighter jet in all its variants/avatars including Chinese clones (J7/F7). It has served very well to its operators so much so that it was revered by Western air forces during the Cold War years.
PAF air ace Abdus Sattar Alvi shot down an Israeli Air Force Mirage III jet on April 26, 1974, flying a Syrian Air Force MiG-21FL. The Soviet Union in a way gave dignity to third world air forces through the Mig-21 platform.
On top of ageing and maintenance related issues, spurious aftermarket spares due to collapse of Soviet Union, in the Indian Air Force (IAF), the MiG-21 was often used as an initial supersonic trainer, meaning relatively inexperienced pilots were flying a demanding aircraft. Operational requirements sometimes forced pilots to transition to the MiG-21 without an intermediate jet trainer, leading to a higher incidence of "pilot error" in accident reports.
Having said that, it remains the most iconic fighter jet in all its variants/avatars including Chinese clones (J7/F7). It has served very well to its operators so much so that it was revered by Western air forces during the Cold War years.
PAF air ace Abdus Sattar Alvi shot down an Israeli Air Force Mirage III jet on April 26, 1974, flying a Syrian Air Force MiG-21FL. The Soviet Union in a way gave dignity to third world air forces through the Mig-21 platform.
Master Chief
Trusted Member
Surely there remains a high probability that the Tejas pilot blacked out or greyed out. A mistake can only be rectified when conscious.
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