Pakistan Army | News and Discussions

[UndercoverJIX]

@newb3e

who is on top of chain of command?

FM AMW

how is this legal?

Unnecessary

Regards

Please tell what FM AMW means??? Thanks

 

[UndercoverJIX]

is it okay if this mouaziz idara is run without notified chief? who is on top of chain of command? how is this legal?

Did you notice, his Reirement date passed already, like last time.

 

[hnn]

You responded to my post originally, which was a response to someone else's post, So you might have missed the context of my post.

Anyway, while in uniform, there are no restrictions on movements or travels within the country or abroad during vacations, for alomost 90% or more.

You can not take any full time, part time or contractual job, privately on your own. While in Uniform.

Restrictions on moving out of country and seeking employment after retirement, is purely based on the keeping current operational knowledge secured. Based on individulas bacground, restriction could be anything.....

There is huge difference what a NCO, JCO or officer knows, you can not compare. Some times a JCO of certain Branch/unit will have more in depth and "important" information as compare to a commissioned officer of other Branches till his retrirement.

MY orginal response to the Gentleman was based upon moving abroad after retirement as a civilian, with the wealth accumilated during Service, with a question mark on the means, based on the salary and benifits during service.

I never use actual terms or names or/of anything specific, no matter Gen. or operational stuff. If some one can understand well and good, if no, does not make any difference in life.

I know I am forgetting to mention something, but cant remember right now...lol

Ah yes! I did read the whole conversation b/w you and Blain - and yes you're correct, I did misinterpret the context which upon reading again now is clear to me.

You were raising the objection about accumulating foreign assets while in service, which would violate service bond. First, I want to accept my mistake here for misunderstanding the context.

As for the loophole you mentioned i.e. business or assets being accumulated under the name of family - for almost a decade now (AFAIK), there is a policy in place whereby officers of PA (at least) have to declare the profession and wealth of their spouses in DSVA. This policy was further reinforced ~ 7 years ago when it was made necessary (at least in books) for an army officer to obtain NOC from MS Branch for their spouse to work/practice her profession (even if she was a working woman prior to marriage) - however, this policy isn't adhered by a number of personnel - that is a problem of our society as a whole (not just restricted to military) where laws and policies aren't strictly followed because of the lack of accountability and punishment.

As for wealth accumulated abroad while being in service - it is lawfully wrong - and I would support your objection on it.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@UndercoverJIX

FM AMW= Field Marshall Aseem Munir the Warrior

Regards

 

[UndercoverJIX]

Ah yes! I did read the whole conversation b/w you and Blain - and yes you're correct, I did misinterpret the context which upon reading again now is clear to me.

You were raising the objection about accumulating foreign assets while in service, which would violate service bond. First, I want to accept my mistake here for misunderstanding the context.

As for the loophole you mentioned i.e. business or assets being accumulated under the name of family - for almost a decade now (AFAIK), there is a policy in place whereby officers of PA (at least) have to declare the profession and wealth of their spouses in DSVA. This policy was further reinforced ~ 7 years ago when it was made necessary (at least in books) for an army officer to obtain NOC from MS Branch for their spouse to work/practice her profession (even if she was a working woman prior to marriage) - however, this policy isn't adhered by a number of personnel - that is a problem of our society as a whole (not just restricted to military) where laws and policies aren't strictly followed because of the lack of accountability and punishment.

As for wealth accumulated abroad while being in service - it is lawfully wrong - and I would support your objection on it.

I agree with you, and even if I have few light objections i will let them go, because i feel its useless. Going into Rules and regulation.

Simple question NS could not answer, " From where the money came". Do you think all these Generals can provide satisfactory justification for dependents to become billionares over night. or, are the willing to let out the trade secrects of magical professions and business the start?

Long wait for Retirement to get benifits, only applies to honest officers, and still they will not even come remotely close to coroupt during service.

 

[UndercoverJIX]

@UndercoverJIX

FM AMW= Field Marshall Aseem Munir the Warrior

Regards

That is not his name or title, so please stop using "W"

We know what you mean, so Please stop this bad habbit. Thanks

 

[Mobius]

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[Michael]

Should be passed in law officers above certain rank cannot ever leave Pakistan even when retired.

i think it be better if we made it people above a certain clearance level cant leave .

In this regard, Pakistan can refer to relevant Chinese laws.

For civil servants and personnel of state-owned institutions (including state-owned enterprises):
1. Private passports of personnel at or above the "处级"(a Chinese administrative rank, roughly equivalent to the head of a direct subordinate department under the mayor of Gwadar in Pakistan) must be surrendered. If they need to travel abroad for personal reasons, they must obtain approval after review. When traveling abroad on official business, a separate official passport is used.

2. There are very strict regulations regarding the spouses and children of personnel at or above the "厅级"(a Chinese administrative rank, roughly equivalent to the mayor of Gwadar in Pakistan) who engage in business or reside abroad. The higher the rank, the stricter the restrictions.

3. Personnel involved in classified information are not subject to their job rank but are restricted by confidentiality regulations. Even a person without a job rank who handles classified information is subject to these restrictions.

4. Retired personnel are not subject to civil servant laws. Retired personnel involved in classified information are subject to confidentiality regulations. They must wait until the declassification period has expired before they can travel or reside abroad. However, senior civil servants are usually subject to lifelong confidentiality. That is, they are prohibited from traveling abroad privately for life. If they need to travel abroad, they must go through a strict approval process.

Chinese military personnel (including the PLA and PAP) are not allowed to hold resident identity cards and private passports while on active duty. They cannot travel abroad privately.
After retirement, they are also subject to confidentiality regulations.

 

[hnn]

I agree with you, and even if I have few light objections i will let them go, because i feel its useless. Going into Rules and regulation.

Simple question NS could not answer, " From where the money came". Do you think all these Generals can provide satisfactory justification for dependents to become billionares over night. or, are the willing to let out the trade secrects of magical professions and business the start?

Long wait for Retirement to get benifits, only applies to honest officers, and still they will not even come remotely close to coroupt during service.

If you can, read the chapter "Leadership Doctrine for the Future" published in Pakistan Army Journal, Volume 34, Issue 3, 1993 - by then Lt Gen Jehangir Karamat.

The article observes the growing materialism trend in Pakistan's society and how this societal pattern had ingressed into Armed Forces as well by early 1990s. Gen Karamat had already officially pointed out the growing trend that we have been observing post 2000s when it matured.

If you want a digital version of the Journal you'd have to get access to student library for University of Minnesota

The connection this has with your raised objection is the age old adage i.e. leaders (political, military, civil, etc) are a reflection of the society itself where they come from. Corruption in one form or another is unfortunately an issue with our society, as is with many other societies - the relationship of corruption with power is linear to say the very least - the difference in more developed societies is not the absence of corruption but the accountability, the latter being almost non-existent in developing countries.

I'm not using this as an excuse - only trying to explain the mechanism by which it happens.

 

[UndercoverJIX]

If you can, read the chapter "Leadership Doctrine for the Future" published in Pakistan Army Journal, Volume 34, Issue 3, 1993 - by then Lt Gen Jehangir Karamat.

The article observes the growing materialism trend in Pakistan's society and how this societal pattern had ingressed into Armed Forces as well by early 1990s. Gen Karamat had already officially pointed out the growing trend that we have been observing post 2000s when it matured.

If you want a digital version of the Journal you'd have to get access to student library for University of Minnesota

The connection this has with your raised objection is the age old adage i.e. leaders (political, military, civil, etc) are a reflection of the society itself where they come from. Corruption in one form or another is unfortunately an issue with our society, as is with many other societies - the relationship of corruption with power is linear to say the very least - the difference in more developed societies is not the absence of corruption but the accountability, the latter being almost non-existent in developing countries.

I'm not using this as an excuse - only trying to explain the mechanism by which it happens.

To me its just an excuse.....

The Great Institution like PA, inducts officers at very young age, nurtures, develops charachter and instils highests standards of qualities and ethics etc into each and every Gentleman, and finest of them all reaches to 2, 3 and 4 Starts.

Institution has its own ecosystem, It selects the finest and develops them etc....

So why compare and blame Punjab police and other so called Bloody Civilins for your own faliure??

It all hurts me deeply to say these things.

 

[hnn]

In this regard, Pakistan can refer to relevant Chinese laws.

For civil servants and personnel of state-owned institutions (including state-owned enterprises):
1. Private passports of personnel at or above the "处级"(a Chinese administrative rank, roughly equivalent to the head of a direct subordinate department under the mayor of Gwadar in Pakistan) must be surrendered. If they need to travel abroad for personal reasons, they must obtain approval after review. When traveling abroad on official business, a separate official passport is used.

2. There are very strict regulations regarding the spouses and children of personnel at or above the "厅级"(a Chinese administrative rank, roughly equivalent to the mayor of Gwadar in Pakistan) who engage in business or reside abroad. The higher the rank, the stricter the restrictions.

3. Personnel involved in classified information are not subject to their job rank but are restricted by confidentiality regulations. Even a person without a job rank who handles classified information is subject to these restrictions.

4. Retired personnel are not subject to civil servant laws. Retired personnel involved in classified information are subject to confidentiality regulations. They must wait until the declassification period has expired before they can travel or reside abroad. However, senior civil servants are usually subject to lifelong confidentiality. That is, they are prohibited from traveling abroad privately for life. If they need to travel abroad, they must go through a strict approval process.

Chinese military personnel (including the PLA and PAP) are not allowed to hold resident identity cards and private passports while on active duty. They cannot travel abroad privately.
After retirement, they are also subject to confidentiality regulations.

Laws 1 and 3 are in place in Pakistan as well but generally not followed all government/civil servant and armed forces personnel are required upon joining service to get their passport data rectified to reflect the status as a "government employee/armed forces personnel" - this rectification in their passport data then bars them from traveling abroad in private capacity without an applicable NOC. For official travels they have to acquire the Official (Blue) passport. All government employees/armed forces personnel/civilians are also subject to Official Secrets Act which is an NDA applicable throughout their life, and armed forces personnel (besides OSA) are also subject to certain sections of PAA regarding the disclosure of any information that undermines national security throughout their life.

Law 2 is also in place in Pakistan albeit not as strict as in China - as in they aren't restricted from conducting business but the official declaration of said business is required. For armed forces though, esp army, NOC is required for the spouse to work in any capacity (local or abroad).

Law 4 is generally not in place as in the case of China. However, top ranking officials are always under surveillance through out their life instead.

The issue in Pakistan is not the absence of laws but instead the absence of enforcement

 

[hnn]

To me its just an excuse.....

The Great Institution like PA, inducts officers at very young age, nurtures, develops charachter and instils highests standards of qualities and ethics etc into each and every Gentleman, and finest of them all reaches to 2, 3 and 4 Starts.

Institution has its own ecosystem, It selects the finest and develops them etc....

So why compare and blame Punjab police and other so called Bloody Civilins for your own faliure??

It all hurts me deeply to say these things.

Well, in the article, Gen Karamat doesn't place the blame on "bloody civilians" but instead mentions how "military personnel" have begun (1993) to be materialistic and seek undue favors. He entirely places the blame on the failure of the institution to weed out such behaviors hence the title "Leadership Doctrine for the Future"

Also, you have to understand here that military induction, or any other induction in government/civil servant offices happens from within the pool of applicants who are "civilians" and have learnt behaviors of their social groups. Some learn integrity, while others don't. It is the responsibility of the institution to weed out the personnel whenever they are found to be lacking integrity - and this is what Gen Karamat talks about in the article. It is the lack of enforcement of the laws, policies, and procedures that damages an institution.

e.g. as per ARR "negligence" is a court martial offense even saying "I'm not a machine and can't work 24 hrs" to a senior officer is a court martial offense these two categories of charges aren't even in the same class as disobedience but still per books warrant the highest punishment. However, when was the last time a personnel was court martialed for negligence?

As to why these laws don't get enforced, the social learning explains it again. So it's not the same as blaming another social group/institution as much as blaming the pillars of society that have become degraded over time.

Laws/Policies are made by humans, enforced by humans, and followed by humans. Similarly they are also bypassed by humans. Social Systems don't automatically work as per their intended implication - they still need social consensus in practice.

 

[UndercoverJIX]

Well, in the article, Gen Karamat doesn't place the blame on "bloody civilians" but instead mentions how "military personnel" have begun (1993) to be materialistic and seek undue favors. He entirely places the blame on the failure of the institution to weed out such behaviors hence the title "Leadership Doctrine for the Future"

Also, you have to understand here that military induction, or any other induction in government/civil servant offices happens from within the pool of applicants who are "civilians" and have learnt behaviors of their social groups. Some learn integrity, while others don't. It is the responsibility of the institution to weed out the personnel whenever they are found to be lacking integrity - and this is what Gen Karamat talks about in the article. It is the lack of enforcement of the laws, policies, and procedures that damages an institution.

e.g. as per ARR "negligence" is a court martial offense even saying "I'm not a machine and can't work 24 hrs" to a senior officer is a court martial offense these two categories of charges aren't even in the same class as disobedience but still per books warrant the highest punishment. However, when was the last time a personnel was court martialed for negligence?

As to why these laws don't get enforced, the social learning explains it again. So it's not the same as blaming another social group/institution as much as blaming the pillars of society that have become degraded over time.

Laws/Policies are made by humans, enforced by humans, and followed by humans. Similarly they are also bypassed by humans. Social Systems don't automatically work as per their intended implication - they still need social consensus in practice.

Need to make up our mind, cant blame both parties, to me it seems like preapring grounds for acceptable behaviour.

Can not change the society, but have total control over the institution.

Selection process incudes all type of evealuations.

After Passing Out, when faced with a different culture and ethics, what the Young once should do? go with the flow and advance your carrier or stick with higher standards and go home as a Major?

Following orders and Discipline is excellent, that is why no one questions their seniors or unlawful orders.

We are not discussing ordinary soldiers/Officers becharay, We are discussing the finest decorated with Stars.

So, If 30 Years in the service failed, what this shows???? Longer you stay in the Institution worst you get? can we still blame the bad iinfluence or habbits I had 50 Years ago before joining???

 

[Michael]

Laws 1 and 3 are in place in Pakistan as well but generally not followed all government/civil servant and armed forces personnel are required upon joining service to get their passport data rectified to reflect the status as a "government employee/armed forces personnel" - this rectification in their passport data then bars them from traveling abroad in private capacity without an applicable NOC. For official travels they have to acquire the Official (Blue) passport. All government employees/armed forces personnel/civilians are also subject to Official Secrets Act which is an NDA applicable throughout their life, and armed forces personnel (besides OSA) are also subject to certain sections of PAA regarding the disclosure of any information that undermines national security throughout their life.

Law 2 is also in place in Pakistan albeit not as strict as in China - as in they aren't restricted from conducting business but the official declaration of said business is required. For armed forces though, esp army, NOC is required for the spouse to work in any capacity (local or abroad).

Law 4 is generally not in place as in the case of China. However, top ranking officials are always under surveillance through out their life instead.

The issue in Pakistan is not the absence of laws but instead the absence of enforcement

In contemporary China, government and military officials, once they reach a certain rank, effectively lose their "freedom" forever.

They must reside in designated high-ranking official residential communities, which offer stringent security and comfortable living conditions. They have dedicated luxury cars and personal drivers for transportation. They also enjoy unlimited free medical care...

They are freed from the worries of daily life, allowing them to concentrate on their work.

These privileged living conditions are a symbol of status. However, it also means they lose the right to live freely.

When they want to do something inconsistent with their official position, the staff serving them become their supervisors.

If they wear an expensive Swiss watch or a luxury brand jacket, even if they haven't committed corruption and purchased it entirely with their own salary, they will quickly face public criticism and investigation from higher authorities. This means the end of their political career.

In our daily lives, giving gifts to government officials is a very sophisticated art. If you don't thoroughly study this art, you will find it difficult to give gifts or bribe government officials, and you may even face legal penalties. Those who can successfully bribe numerous high-ranking government officials are considered top "talents" in the Chinese business world. However, these "talents" are usually found in prison.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

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Actually this perfectly sums up the situation. Its funny and sad at the same time that what kind of circus Pakistan is reduced to post regime change. A country of 250 million and yet their fate to be decided by a single retired 21 grade general (govt servant) who is effectively self proclaimed king for lifetime. Totally responsible are puppets / shareef dynasty, always a boot lickers.