JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Pak-Warrior]

View attachment 162877looks like paf is looking for funding for faaz lol, put on the poster in the back with jf17

Good eye. and that's a good poster showing locally produced weaponry only. Finally GIDS/PAC improving a bit in their marketing materials. Still needs to do much more.

Pakistan remains in a war like situation. We can put "combat tested" stamp on most weapons. Use that guided munitions (with sales potential) next time against legit TTP targets deep in AFG, get the whole thing on HD video. and replay that in the booths with title "actual combat footage".

 

[maxpane]

it neans faaz is in service of paf

 

[东风夜放花千树]

I believe that whether Pakistan chooses Khan or develops fighter jets, it is the right decision. However, for a long time, it will still need to obtain weapons from China.

First, Pakistan needs weapons comparable to India's to defend the country, and apart from the US and Russia, only Chinese weapons meet this requirement.

Second, Chinese weapons are free from restrictions and sanctions, with no political conditions attached.

Third, the prices are favorable, allowing for more flexible payment methods. The procurement costs are lower than those of weapons from the US, Russia, or France, and they are quite powerful.

Fourth, the relationship between the two countries is very good, and China may even gift some trial weapons.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

There was a guy like you in 1959 telling the armed forces to go all in on the US because they provided weapons at $0.

What do you mean? Is Pakistan getting anything from China for free? Or is Pakistan purchasing whatever it needs for itself from China with hard cash?

 

[Michael]

If Turkieye has not yet produced one, then how can we think Pakistan can start and develop an engine ? Maybe one for a cruise missile, but that would be the limit of Pakistan's current scientific/engineering, institutional and infrastructure capabilities would allow.

This depends on how you define "it," that is, what constitutes a domestically produced engine.

1. Directly purchasing it from a foreign country. You have the right to dispose of it.
2. Directly purchasing it from a foreign country, grinding off the foreign logo and printing your own logo.
3. Purchasing all the parts from a foreign country and assembling them domestically.
4. Purchasing most of the components from a foreign country, manufacturing the casing domestically, and completing the final assembly.
5. Importing core components from a foreign country, manufacturing other components domestically, and completing the final assembly.
6. Importing key raw materials from a foreign country, manufacturing all components domestically, and completing the final assembly.
7. Introducing technology from a foreign country and completing everything from raw material production to the final product domestically.
8. Completing everything from design and basic raw materials to the final product entirely domestically.

Currently, China's aero-engine capabilities are at a level of 7-8. This means that we import some technologies from abroad and combine them with our own domestically developed technologies, completing the entire process from the most basic raw materials (natural products) to the final product within China.

What level do you think Türkiye can reach? What level do you think Pakistan can reach?

 

[Ak01]

Second, Chinese weapons are free from restrictions and sanctions, with no political conditions attached.

sorry, but this claim that keeps getting peddled is untrue.

There is no conditions that have been hit, but thats because everything aligns right now, that does not mean there is none that exist. Do you think China will allow countries to act against what china deems is in its interest?

This is the same story we saw with the US in the 70's and 80's, so long as our interests are aligned, things will be great, the minute they arent, it all goes to shit, this isnt a thing against china, its valid for anyone, but this claim of "free of strings" doesnt align with this is untrue.

The strings are there, the extent of them is ensuring you're aligned with Chinas broader goals.

 

[东风夜放花千树]

sorry, but this claim that keeps getting peddled is untrue.

There is no conditions that have been hit, but thats because everything aligns right now, that does not mean there is none that exist. Do you think China will allow countries to act against what china deems is in its interest?

This is the same story we saw with the US in the 70's and 80's, so long as our interests are aligned, things will be great, the minute they arent, it all goes to shit, this isnt a thing against china, its valid for anyone, but this claim of "free of strings" doesnt align with this is untrue.

The strings are there, the extent of them is ensuring you're aligned with Chinas broader goals.

Both China and Pakistan have been betrayed by friendly countries, so your thoughts are understandable.
Both China and Pakistan have been betrayed by friendly countries, so our viewpoints are generally cautious and conservative. The difference is that I am more optimistic about China-Pakistan relations and believe there will be more cooperation in the future.

When someone on the Chinese internet mentioned that Pakistan gave Chinese technology and weapons to Turkey for research, many people were very angry. This is because when China’s Liaoning aircraft carrier returned home, it was extorted by Turkey, while Pakistan is one of China’s best partners.

So your perspective is understandable.

 

[AeronautIR]

If Turkieye has not yet produced one, then how can we think Pakistan can start and develop an engine ? Maybe one for a cruise missile, but that would be the limit of Pakistan's current scientific/engineering, institutional and infrastructure capabilities would allow.

It is an ongoing project and I am anxiously waiting for any positive news about it... my point was that I am personally far more interested in the development of a top quality engine than any 5th gen aircraft...
I agree with you about difficulties of producing an indigenous engine... examples of India, Turkey etc. show the struggles of it, but with recent Chinese progress we can hope for some collaboration for gas turbine technology.

 

[AeronautIR]

There is a Technology development roadmap of NASTP. It needs to be shown at least in broad strokes, to show what are the goals and rough timelines.

And I may be getting ahead of myself, equally important to an en engine project would be some local sovereign semiconductor fab capability, both in logic and power semiconductor domains.

Of course there is a 2035 Roadmap and I saw those volumes but didn't go through them... they are guidelines for future projects, though nobody can give exact timeline of when any of the cutting-edge tech will break cover.

 

[Michael]

but with recent Chinese progress we can hope for some collaboration for gas turbine technology.

What exactly are you referring to? "Gas turbine engine" is a very broad category. Are you referring to aircraft engines, automotive engines, or marine engines?

Currently, China's WS-10 series engines are widely used in various fighter jets. However, few people know that the core engine of the WS-10 is also used in naval vessel engines and civilian power generators.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

You forgot the millennium falcon, if everything goes to plan we should be getting at least 40 of those between 2028 and 2035

View attachment 162961

Seriously, for that you have to wait at least until Qasim’s great grand son come into politics.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Pakistan's choices for fighter jets is very limited, ie only China. Türkiye is the only other option since Pakistan cannot develop its own planes, and wont be able to do so for quite some time( the PFX programme is a joke .. ). Having some level of military diversity in your fleet is useful in case a platform becomes compromised militarily.

How do you know it’s a joke?

 

[Ali_Baba]

How do you know it’s a joke?

a) Pakistan does not have the pool of engineers to be able to make a new fighter design. Where are the trained engineers with proven track history of taking a design they have done to production? Most of what PAF sent for the JF17 project were military officers who have since either retired, or moved onto new projects. There is no institutional knowledge in Pakistan of aircraft design as Pakistan has no aircraft design house where knowledge is passed onto younger professionals who have made it their career choice to design planes. It is all military officers who treat it as the "next assignment" for their next promotion.
b) Pakistan does not have a good enough university network to be able to do the core R&D required for a project of that scope. The core R&D for military projects in the western world is actually done at an academic level. You only have to see the involvement of UK universities in GCAP to understand that. If you can name more than "1" university in Pakistan that can operate at that level, I will be impressed. It is not what Pakistani universities are geared up to do.
c) Pakistan does not have the infrastructure to test or validate any design of a fighter jet in Pakistan. All of the testing and validation infrastructure of a jet design, including large wind tunnels is in China for the JF17 platform. Turkieye went through a very visible expenditure programme to build all of those new facilities include stealth testing chambers, large wind tunnels in Turkieye.
d) Pakistan does not have the money for a project of that size of scale to do the project, or build the new infrastructure required for it, or even pay another country to use its facilities to test and validate the design.
e) Pakistan has no experience on designing a plane of any description in Pakistan let alone a military fast jet. All other projects were joint, with some low % of manufacturing done in Pakistan. Even the JF17 is still at the 58% for the airframe, which is arguably the simplest part. The only thing Pakistan has "designed" in Pakistan is some UAVs, and all of them are aerodynamically stable designs.
f) Pakistan lacks the infrastructure to validate a "scaled" up JF17 in the same way that the Gripen went to the Gripen-E.. Everything Pakistan has is to "validate" that a manufactured product meets a validated specification. There is nothing for that iterative design/validation cycle that is required in a development project.

I could go on, but i dont see the point. The concept of the PFX being a new design is a joke. I have not seen anyone provide any evidence that Pakistan has the required dependencies in place for a project of that size of magnitude. A PFX which is an avionics swap out of the mission computers and radar, with different (additional) weapons integration is a possibility on the same airframe design is a possibility.

Can you provide proof that Pakistan is capable of doing a new design, or a scaled up JF17 to PFX other than the "trust me bro, we can ?" ?????

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

This depends on how you define "it," that is, what constitutes a domestically produced engine.

1. Directly purchasing it from a foreign country. You have the right to dispose of it.
2. Directly purchasing it from a foreign country, grinding off the foreign logo and printing your own logo.
3. Purchasing all the parts from a foreign country and assembling them domestically.
4. Purchasing most of the components from a foreign country, manufacturing the casing domestically, and completing the final assembly.
5. Importing core components from a foreign country, manufacturing other components domestically, and completing the final assembly.
6. Importing key raw materials from a foreign country, manufacturing all components domestically, and completing the final assembly.
7. Introducing technology from a foreign country and completing everything from raw material production to the final product domestically.
8. Completing everything from design and basic raw materials to the final product entirely domestically.

Currently, China's aero-engine capabilities are at a level of 7-8. This means that we import some technologies from abroad and combine them with our own domestically developed technologies, completing the entire process from the most basic raw materials (natural products) to the final product within China.

What level do you think Türkiye can reach? What level do you think Pakistan can reach?

may be 5 at max.

 

[AeronautIR]

What exactly are you referring to? "Gas turbine engine" is a very broad category. Are you referring to aircraft engines, automotive engines, or marine engines?

Currently, China's WS-10 series engines are widely used in various fighter jets. However, few people know that the core engine of the WS-10 is also used in naval vessel engines and civilian power generators.

Good question... the context of discussion was a good indigenous turbofan engine for Pakistani aircraft projects like PFX, may be for Turkish KAAN too... my point is that development of aircraft without own engine makes anyone highly dependent on suppliers.