JF-17 PFX program

If we go back to the original ASR's and the indications of what the PAF wanted, the J-35 was not it.

We also have seen no signs of any firm commitment towards the J-35 yet, no matter how much the press releases show J35's, i am yet to spot any indication that an induction is in the works. We would certainly see some things being done, like new constructions at airbases.

View attachment 164403

for reference, j35 has like a 50+ foot wingspan.

So new HAS are a given at the very least.

Also, we dont see any trainer procurement, this i think is the KEY sign that a NGFA is in the works, the PAF's current training setup, F-7s etc arent going to support pilots very well, yeah basic flying is basic flying, but as we move forward in tech, giving crews exposure from day one to the fundamental technologies they'll employ when flying their eventual type is handy.

Its effectively like training in a cessna, but being thrown in a 737. Yeah, planes fly, itll go up, itll go down, but other than some basic flying, is there anything he can take with him to his 737 job... probably not much.

I do think the TFX aligns far better with what the PAF wants/needs. It also is an opportunity at the moment still, where if we buy in early, we can get some concessions, integration of our payloads more freely etc. I will be very surprised for example if China allows Ra'ad integration on the J-35. They dont need their name on Pakistani nuclear assets, its a bad look for them. The Turks OTOH could give us free reign on what we do in exchange for buying in early for example, i.e PAC could be allowed to freely integrate weapons of its choice, or we could be setup as some sort of industrial partner, even if it is just producing bulkheads like.

Eventually something needs to happen with PAC, Pak knows this. It cant carry on producing jf17s forever. As mirages die, factories become idle, and for PAC to die, even though its a mess, would be a strategic blunder. So, something needs to be built there, will China let us support the J35 supply chain? Probably not. Will the Turks rope us into their ecosystem, VERY Likely. PAC unless you put some serious investment in, wont be producing jets forever, which is fine, who cares, but PAC could transition from a final production facility, into an industrial partner, producing vast swathes of other parts for industry. Imagine if TAI brought manufacturing into Pakistan for the variety of their platforms. PAC would have a factory producing Hurjet bits, one producing TFX bits, the other for Hurkus, etc etc. Its not what people envision for PAC, but i think it might actually be a reasonable way forward. Now if only the PAF sold a stake in PAC to another entity, like TAI for example.

IF, and its a big IF the J-35 makes its way into the PAF, i dont think it would be on its merit or capabilities, but because of Dictator Sidhu Sahib's desire to cement a legacy, so he can retire and tell people he was the one who turned the PAF into a Next Jeneration Air Phorce, as he loves to show off in the press releases. Its all contracts being handed willy nilly to a select few Chinese vendors, but the question is, are they being offered on merit of the product, or again, so small man sidhu can get a kick out of it and make himself feel like hes done something.
Like, as much as this is a gorgeous scheme and aircraft...
1765232682145.png

The world is specifically moving away from these sorts of colours, into low vis stuff, because it makes it far harder to spot.

Tell me, where in Pakistan is this sort of colour scheme going to make the J-10 harder to spot? Yea fair enough if we were doing low level stuff over a tropical/jungle-y terrain, but we're not. Pakistan is grey and brown. This thing sticks out like a sore thumb,


key part to look at is british a/c paint during the gulf war.

The PAF is not being run on merit effectively, but seemingly, personal desire. If this was to be an ode to the squadrons history, i dont see why you'd paint all of their aircraft in this scheme, its counter productive really, if you're flying medium/high level ops, you want a grey-er scheme to be harder to spot. If you're a pilot, scanning side to side at 30k feet, i bet a green dot is going to be far easier to spot than a low vis grey one like literally everyone has moved to
 
Like, as much as this is a gorgeous scheme and aircraft...
View attachment 164404

The world is specifically moving away from these sorts of colours, into low vis stuff, because it makes it far harder to spot.

Tell me, where in Pakistan is this sort of colour scheme going to make the J-10 harder to spot? Yea fair enough if we were doing low level stuff over a tropical/jungle-y terrain, but we're not. Pakistan is grey and brown. This thing sticks out like a sore thumb,


key part to look at is british a/c paint during the gulf war.

The PAF is not being run on merit effectively, but seemingly, personal desire. If this was to be an ode to the squadrons history, i dont see why you'd paint all of their aircraft in this scheme, its counter productive really, if you're flying medium/high level ops, you want a grey-er scheme to be harder to spot. If you're a pilot, scanning side to side at 30k feet, i bet a green dot is going to be far easier to spot than a low vis grey one like literally everyone has moved to
Having one off examples in the scheme is fine - after all one bird from NATO sqs in Tiger meets gets to dress up too.
But today it is low vis or rather absorbant paint instead of what you flew as a scrappy flt lt.

Personal legacy isn’t something the PAF hasn’t “suffered” in the past.
Everything from mismatched RWRs in Mirages to SAMs to even staff cars.
 
If we go back to the original ASR's and the indications of what the PAF wanted, the J-35 was not it.

We also have seen no signs of any firm commitment towards the J-35 yet, no matter how much the press releases show J35's, i am yet to spot any indication that an induction is in the works. We would certainly see some things being done, like new constructions at airbases.

View attachment 164403

for reference, j35 has like a 50+ foot wingspan.

So new HAS are a given at the very least.

Also, we dont see any trainer procurement, this i think is the KEY sign that a NGFA is in the works, the PAF's current training setup, F-7s etc arent going to support pilots very well, yeah basic flying is basic flying, but as we move forward in tech, giving crews exposure from day one to the fundamental technologies they'll employ when flying their eventual type is handy.

Its effectively like training in a cessna, but being thrown in a 737. Yeah, planes fly, itll go up, itll go down, but other than some basic flying, is there anything he can take with him to his 737 job... probably not much.

I do think the TFX aligns far better with what the PAF wants/needs. It also is an opportunity at the moment still, where if we buy in early, we can get some concessions, integration of our payloads more freely etc. I will be very surprised for example if China allows Ra'ad integration on the J-35. They dont need their name on Pakistani nuclear assets, its a bad look for them. The Turks OTOH could give us free reign on what we do in exchange for buying in early for example, i.e PAC could be allowed to freely integrate weapons of its choice, or we could be setup as some sort of industrial partner, even if it is just producing bulkheads like.

Eventually something needs to happen with PAC, Pak knows this. It cant carry on producing jf17s forever. As mirages die, factories become idle, and for PAC to die, even though its a mess, would be a strategic blunder. So, something needs to be built there, will China let us support the J35 supply chain? Probably not. Will the Turks rope us into their ecosystem, VERY Likely. PAC unless you put some serious investment in, wont be producing jets forever, which is fine, who cares, but PAC could transition from a final production facility, into an industrial partner, producing vast swathes of other parts for industry. Imagine if TAI brought manufacturing into Pakistan for the variety of their platforms. PAC would have a factory producing Hurjet bits, one producing TFX bits, the other for Hurkus, etc etc. Its not what people envision for PAC, but i think it might actually be a reasonable way forward. Now if only the PAF sold a stake in PAC to another entity, like TAI for example.

IF, and its a big IF the J-35 makes its way into the PAF, i dont think it would be on its merit or capabilities, but because of Dictator Sidhu Sahib's desire to cement a legacy, so he can retire and tell people he was the one who turned the PAF into a Next Jeneration Air Phorce, as he loves to show off in the press releases. Its all contracts being handed willy nilly to a select few Chinese vendors, but the question is, are they being offered on merit of the product, or again, so small man sidhu can get a kick out of it and make himself feel like hes done something.
The HAS size is also a hangover from PAFs infra in earlier days.

Same reason IAF went with Tejas specs in a certain form because the majority of their HAS infra was for the fishbed.

Many of PAF’s HAS are focused in the Mirage span save for some positive influence of getting the viper early.
 
If we go back to the original ASR's and the indications of what the PAF wanted, the J-35 was not it.

We also have seen no signs of any firm commitment towards the J-35 yet, no matter how much the press releases show J35's, i am yet to spot any indication that an induction is in the works. We would certainly see some things being done, like new constructions at airbases.

View attachment 164403

for reference, j35 has like a 50+ foot wingspan.

So new HAS are a given at the very least.

Also, we dont see any trainer procurement, this i think is the KEY sign that a NGFA is in the works, the PAF's current training setup, F-7s etc arent going to support pilots very well, yeah basic flying is basic flying, but as we move forward in tech, giving crews exposure from day one to the fundamental technologies they'll employ when flying their eventual type is handy.

Its effectively like training in a cessna, but being thrown in a 737. Yeah, planes fly, itll go up, itll go down, but other than some basic flying, is there anything he can take with him to his 737 job... probably not much.

I do think the TFX aligns far better with what the PAF wants/needs. It also is an opportunity at the moment still, where if we buy in early, we can get some concessions, integration of our payloads more freely etc. I will be very surprised for example if China allows Ra'ad integration on the J-35. They dont need their name on Pakistani nuclear assets, its a bad look for them. The Turks OTOH could give us free reign on what we do in exchange for buying in early for example, i.e PAC could be allowed to freely integrate weapons of its choice, or we could be setup as some sort of industrial partner, even if it is just producing bulkheads like.

Eventually something needs to happen with PAC, Pak knows this. It cant carry on producing jf17s forever. As mirages die, factories become idle, and for PAC to die, even though its a mess, would be a strategic blunder. So, something needs to be built there, will China let us support the J35 supply chain? Probably not. Will the Turks rope us into their ecosystem, VERY Likely. PAC unless you put some serious investment in, wont be producing jets forever, which is fine, who cares, but PAC could transition from a final production facility, into an industrial partner, producing vast swathes of other parts for industry. Imagine if TAI brought manufacturing into Pakistan for the variety of their platforms. PAC would have a factory producing Hurjet bits, one producing TFX bits, the other for Hurkus, etc etc. Its not what people envision for PAC, but i think it might actually be a reasonable way forward. Now if only the PAF sold a stake in PAC to another entity, like TAI for example.

IF, and its a big IF the J-35 makes its way into the PAF, i dont think it would be on its merit or capabilities, but because of Dictator Sidhu Sahib's desire to cement a legacy, so he can retire and tell people he was the one who turned the PAF into a Next Jeneration Air Phorce, as he loves to show off in the press releases. Its all contracts being handed willy nilly to a select few Chinese vendors, but the question is, are they being offered on merit of the product, or again, so small man sidhu can get a kick out of it and make himself feel like hes done something.
I imagine the J-35 acquisition is really going to hurt your Turkish/Western obsession. 🤔

Meh teh bas ef sola lesa. 😂
 
The current Pakistani approach is the most illogical approach you can adopt to develop an aviation industry. Turkieye did it the correct way, the template is there to copy. Pakistan is trying to do it backward, and will fail.

Do not confuse Pakistan "needs" with its "technical abilities". They are two different things.



No one here is getting involved in 100% of anything. The point, which is being lost on people is that it takes hundreds of engineers of various disciplines to design and build an airframe design and do all the integration of all the subsystems(even if all subsystems are purchased). Pakistan does not have that many aviation engineers that have done that "once", let alone can take the lead on aircraft design. The suggestion that Pakistan "can" fundamentally shows the lack of understanding of the sheer amount of intellectual knowledge required for that activity.
It's well known fact that different teams of Pakistani engineers participated in the design work for JF-17 in China. According to AM(R) Shahid Latif, many of those engineers also attended classes/courses at Chinese universities reputed in the related fields to make up for the deficiencies in academic knowledge. I don't know how much reality is in your claims of "Pakistan does not have that many aviation engineers that have done that "once", let alone can take the lead on aircraft design."

In addition, India's case isn't drastically different from Pakistan's. If Indians can hire teams of foreign experts for doing the actual design work for Tegas, what stops Pakistan from doing the same? Pakistan can even start teaching and training programs/courses with foreign experts being the trainers to impart the related academic knowledge to Pakistani engineers.

I think it all boils down to the determination on the part of Pakistani government, PAF, and related Pakistani universities/bodies. Let's have trust in whatever the concerned Pakistani quarters are doing in this regard.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TAC
What will the PFX program replace?

Pakistan's current inventory.

Aircraft
In Service
Mirage 3/5
179​
JF-17 Thunder
153​
F-7 P/PG
85​
F-16 Fighting Falcon
75​
J-10C Indus Dragon
20​
Total
512

Some of the inventory numbers acquired from this book.

PAF Vision 2030: Inside Pakistan’s Secret Plan to Dominate the Skies - By Zohaib Ahmed
We still have around 250+ older planes to replace, that is almost half our AF size... that's sad and concerning.
 
when are you going to renounce islam and let everyone know you worship the chinese instead?
If Babus worshipped the Chinese, they would emulate the Chinese work culture, organization, delegation to experts, etc.

The Babus are more focused on finding the ultra-rare Labubu doll that will eventually end up in Madam's $12,000 purse.
 
If Babus worshipped the Chinese, they would emulate the Chinese work culture, organization, delegation to experts, etc.

The Babus are more focused on finding the ultra-rare Labubu doll that will eventually end up in Madam's $12,000 purse.
Useless obsession with Maryam Nawaz. I dont know why you lot are so obsessed with her?
 
Useless obsession with Maryam Nawaz. I dont know why you lot are so obsessed with her?
What's it to you? You like her?

If this family's business wasn't politics, I wouldn't care; but anyone parading themselves in high-priced goods while living on the public exchequer is to be held accountable.

The Sahaba (RA) questioned Umar ibn al-Khattab (RA) -- a man whose toenail achieved more than the entirety of your Babu establishment can in 10,000 lifetimes -- why he had two cloaks instead of one, and you're coming out here thinking a public official whose pilfering the exchequer is above a little critique.
 
You like her bro?
? Why do i have to like someone to point out your obsessive behaviour? I have no opinions on her, not on a defence forum on a thread that has to do with JF-17. You lot are fixated on personalities all the time. Be it your cult leader or the opposition of your cult leader.
 
? Why do i have to like someone to point out your obsessive behaviour? I have no opinions on her, not on a defence forum on a thread that has to do with JF-17. You lot are fixated on personalities all the time. Be it your cult leader or the opposition of your cult leader.
Lol, you talking about IK and PTI?

Fine. F IK and PTI. Screw 'em. God erase them from the face of this Earth: اللَّهُمَّ إِنَّا نَجْعَلُكَ فِي نُحُورِهِمْ، وَنَعُوْذُ بِكَ مِنْ شُرُوْرِهِمْ

Ameen.

Now, you make dua that PPP and PML also be erased from this Earth. Go ahead, waiting.
 
Lol, you talking about IK and PTI?

Fine. F IK and PTI. Screw 'em. God erase them from the face of this Earth: اللَّهُمَّ إِنَّا نَجْعَلُكَ فِي نُحُورِهِمْ، وَنَعُوْذُ بِكَ مِنْ شُرُوْرِهِمْ

Ameen.

Now, you make dua that PPP and PML also be erased from this Earth. Go ahead, waiting.
Ameen. There you go. Now next time my humble suggestion is to start focusing on the right things.
 
We still have around 250+ older planes to replace, that is almost half our AF size... that's sad and concerning.
hes talking shite.

Most of PAF's mirages now are EoL, they selected the few remaining airframes to form 50TA Sqn

Cobras transitioned to J-10s

Haiders, Block 3's

I think the mirages were consolidated to Rafiqui, they're becoming far too difficult to keep running now. Theres no F-7P's as far as i know, with some F-7PG's remaining.

Its definitely not 250+ older planes.

But yea, they're going to need to do something about the dwindling sqn strengths as aircraft become unserviceable. Only real option is pick up some more JF-17s, but i think block 3 is an interim, hence the hesitance, its clear the PAF is waiting for something otherwise the JF-17 or J10 option has always been there... I wonder whether the PAF would trade some mirage squadrons for example for Kizilelma, would be interesting.
 
The HAS size is also a hangover from PAFs infra in earlier days.

Same reason IAF went with Tejas specs in a certain form because the majority of their HAS infra was for the fishbed.

Many of PAF’s HAS are focused in the Mirage span save for some positive influence of getting the viper early.
J-35A will likely come as the F-16A/Bs likely won't serve past 2040 from what I can assess. The PAF doesn't have any real options that can slot into the offensive spear-tip role.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Posts

Back
Top