JF-17 PFX program

[puttputt]

if i could turn back time, i would abort whoever decided on the JF-17 project instead of developing a mirage 3 based fighter in house wholly.

That's what the South Africans began doing, first with a rebuild and major upgrade via the Cheetah program (which required new wings, etc.), and then with plans for a new M3/M5-derived platform called the Carver.

I would've preferred our R&D money being spent in that direction as it would've given us a two-track plan: First, an interim plan to get large numbers of multirole fighters via the Cheetah (which we could config R-Darters, U-Darters, H2/H4s SOWs, etc, all ahead of 1999/Kargil). Next, a new multirole fighter derived from the Cheetah or core M3/M5 airframe, but with digital FBW, RD-93 turbofan, small GaN AESA radar, HMD/S, etc., for the future fleet-builder that is mostly sourced and built in Pakistan. And, from there, a next-gen fighter program on a twin RD-93 configuration.

 

[Ibbi32]

if i could turn back time, i would abort whoever decided on the JF-17 project instead of developing a mirage 3 based fighter in house wholly.

Realistically it wouldve been better if the french actually did allow us to build our own mirages as bhutto wanted. Sure in late 70s mirage 3/5s are certainly getting outdated but that production line alone wouldve been gamechanging for pakistani aviation and wouldve made sabre II even more possible

 

[Ak01]

Realistically it wouldve been better if the french actually did allow us to build our own mirages as bhutto wanted. Sure in late 70s mirage 3/5s are certainly getting outdated but that production line alone wouldve been gamechanging for pakistani aviation and wouldve made sabre II even more possible

i dont even think we'd need a licence.

we had tons of expertise on the platform, even more so than the JF-17. If tomorrow China turned its back on us, the PAF is getting grounded, yet the mirages now are ONLY being retired because we've maxed them out now, theyre out of life for good at this point, no point to extend them.

We could probably get a pretty chunky radar on the mirages actually

 

[puttputt]

Realistically it wouldve been better if the french actually did allow us to build our own mirages as bhutto wanted. Sure in late 70s mirage 3/5s are certainly getting outdated but that production line alone wouldve been gamechanging for pakistani aviation and wouldve made sabre II even more possible

The French were fine to work with until around the late 1990s. Even if they refused to transfer the know-how, we could've done it ourselves had we invested in the area (and find good partners where possible, such as South Africa, which did do it via the Cheetah).

Men of vision steered us towards building the entire nuclear fuel cycle indigenously. However, that took a combo of money, meritocratic leadership, having the scientists and engineers lead (not parachuting in politicians or generals), and commitment.

This is the "I will build it even if I don't have XYZ" mindset, not the "wHy Do tHiS wHeN wE R jUsT pOoR, dIrTy, aaand No sToCk MaRkET?"

The M3/M5 was the good platform from which to build our aerospace industry. We already had the in-house d-level MRO expertise across airframe and engine. The next step was to build and link a domestic industrial base to feed into it.

IMO, had it not been for the PPP feudals' insane "nationalization," the private sector would've gotten us to the point of indigenously manufacturing the M3/M5 by the end of the 1980s.

 

[Ak01]

The French were fine to work with until around the late 1990s. Even if they refused to transfer the know-how, we could've done it ourselves had we invested in the area (and find good partners where possible, such as South Africa, which did do it via the Cheetah).

Men of vision steered us towards building the entire nuclear fuel cycle indigenously. However, that took a combo of money, meritocratic leadership, having the scientists and engineers lead (not parachuting in politicians or generals), and commitment. This is the "I will build it even if I don't have XYZ" mindset, not the "wHy Do tHiS wHeN wE R jUsT pOoR, dIrTy, aaand No sToCk MaRkET?"

bro you should setup a blog or something, would be good.

 

[puttputt]

bro you should setup a blog or something, would be good.

Yes, it's called Second to None and Hilal.

This was the Atlas Carver. We could've done this had our aerospace (and economy in general) not been in the hands of babus, waderay, etc.

 

[hasssanali8998]

So, when dealing with the Chinese, you have to come in as a cold, pragmatic buyer and do NOT expect anything more or less. To China's credit, once they sign the contract, they will deliver, and will deliver at a good cost. Thus, the way to use the Chinese here is to import the specific inputs you'll need right away for your system. Lean on them for that until such time your own industry can swap in and replace them in that specific area

literally perfect description

. However, that took a combo of money, meritocratic leadership, having the scientists and engineers lead (not parachuting in politicians or generals), and commitment.

also the biggest factor , we had no choice

 

[Ak01]

That's what the South Africans began doing, first with a rebuild and major upgrade via the Cheetah program (which required new wings, etc.), and then with plans for a new M3/M5-derived platform called the Carver.

I would've preferred our R&D money being spent in that direction as it would've given us a two-track plan: First, an interim plan to get large numbers of multirole fighters via the Cheetah (which we could config R-Darters, U-Darters, H2/H4s SOWs, etc, all ahead of 1999/Kargil). Next, a new multirole fighter derived from the Cheetah or core M3/M5 airframe, but with digital FBW, RD-93 turbofan, small GaN AESA radar, HMD/S, etc., for the future fleet-builder that is mostly sourced and built in Pakistan. And, from there, a next-gen fighter program on a twin RD-93 configuration.

i think the key here is just starting somewhere, literally.

Yang Wei in an interview said, typical aircraft design process requires 30-40% new components, the rest can be re used to minimise risk/cost. You actually see this alot in China, see UCAVs usng F7 parts.

We cant even start somewhere bruh because we didnt design shit.

If we did take this mirage route, then use the stuff we built as the basis, re using components etc, modernising them, we could have perhaps built a new fighter, more capable, and quicker compared to a clean sheet design.

 

[Corax]

I think there actually was a programme by the South Africans to install the RD93 in the Mirage airframe, they may have even built one if my memory serves me correctly.

 

[Ak01]

I think there actually was a programme by the South Africans to install the RD93 in the Mirage airframe, they may have even built one if my memory serves me correctly.

yes, thats exactly what we were referencing.

The M3 airframe is such an interesting one.

The one airframe could fit 3 very distinct engine types wth modification.

J79 in Israel, RD33 in SA and obviously ATAR.

 

[Corax]

But you have to remember that countries like Israel and SA had an established industrial base which could produce parts and components from raw materials, Pakistan still doesn't have the industrial base for that.

 

[Ak01]

But you have to remember that countries like Israel and SA had an established industrial base which could produce parts and components from raw materials, Pakistan still doesn't have the industrial base for that.

thats exactly our point... read what we've been discussing above.

Developing mirages further would have made this happen, because nobody could have done it for us.

Anyway, we kept them flying for decades with little to no support so

 

[Corax]

thats exactly our point... read what we've been discussing above.

Developing mirages further would have made this happen, because nobody could have done it for us.

Anyway, we kept them flying for decades with little to no support so

I think we're talking chicken and egg here, what I'm saying is that Pakistan couldn't have produced a mirage from scratch, licensed or unlicensed, because it didn't have the industrial base, unlike Israel and SA, that's why it couldn't develop the Mirage further. It still can't produce the JF17 from scratch, there's simply no industrial base for it, not in the 70/80s and not now.

 

[puttputt]

But you have to remember that countries like Israel and SA had an established industrial base which could produce parts and components from raw materials, Pakistan still doesn't have the industrial base for that.

We could've built that. We were literally building that through the 1950s and 1960s until "nationalization" came into the picture. Unfortunately, no one took the mantle of properly reindustrializing the country by empowering the private sector after that, but it was doable.

Again, the PAF could've established a mission (like the nuclear fuel cycle) of building an aerospace industry and opened the M3/M5 for the private sector to study and build on. In the beginning, we would've needed to partner with the South Africans, but (to the point about middle powers above), they would've helped us industrialize for the money (to their R&D). Likewise, many industrial experts from Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, ex-Yugoslavia, Russia, and so on were looking for jobs through the 1990s and man, had we been organized and driven, we could've leveraged that expertise across our STEM education to bottom-up R&D to private sector build-up across steel, gas turbines, aluminium, composites, etc.

Every single is doable provided you adopt a real mission and stick to it. If there was one damn thing we needed to learn from the Chinese, it was that, and we STILL..... fk.

 

[Ak01]

I think we're talking chicken and egg here, what I'm saying is that Pakistan couldn't have produced a mirage from scratch, licensed or unlicensed, because it didn't have the industrial base, unlike Israel and SA, that's why it couldn't develop the Mirage further. It still can't produce the JF17 from scratch, there's simply no industrial base for it, not in the 70/80s and not now.

industries develop as a result of need.

needs dont develop as a result of industry.

Pakistan actually has a habit of this, spend tons on production equiptment when theres no need for it.

your mentality is the wrong way around. When Baykar devleoped their first drone, they did not have a huge production facility, they had a few guys and a shed, they built facility and infrastructure, an industry BECAUSE there was a demand... You think countries setup huge industries for them to sit idle until theres an order"