PTI News, Updates and Discussion

Do you think PTI has a future without Imran Khan?

  • Yes

    Votes: 22 19.6%
  • No

    Votes: 80 71.4%
  • Only if senior leadership is released

    Votes: 10 8.9%

  • Total voters
    112
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Fair point. I appreciate an honest and balanced view.

The major reason I'm labelling your post as an over-simplification of the problem is because it funnels down the responsibility for the systemic failure onto a single institution - when that institution (though complicit) is mainly a tool through which power dynamics manifest - the enablers of which aren't mainly a part of the institution but have the strings attached to it (and to other institutions and political parties as well)

And the power dynamic that has a repeated pattern of exploitation indeed has its root set in the "fluid identity of the state"

e.g. whether Pakistan is to be a Secular State or a Religious State has the same bearing on the "provision of justice" - as both ideologies have Justice as a Virtue in their systems - yet the virtue was never to be found irrespective of the form of government.

e.g. the amnesty and protection to elite interests was provided in all forms of government, whether Civil or Military, and whether PTI or any other political party.
 
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The major reason I'm labelling your post as an over-simplification is because it funnels down the responsibility for the systemic failure onto a single institution - when that institution (though complicit) is mainly a tool through which power dynamics manifest - the enablers of which aren't mainly a part of the institution but have the strings attached to it (and to other institutions and political parties as well)

And the power dynamic that has a repeated pattern of exploitation indeed has its root set in the "fluid identity of the state"

e.g. whether Pakistan is to be a Secular State or a Religious State has no bearing on the "provision of justice" - as both ideologies have Justice as a Virtue in their systems - yet the virtue was never to be found irrespective of the form of government.
Look, just like in a hospital you have different levels of surgeons and doctors some excellent, some average, some mediocre analysts also differ in how they approach a problem. My job, as someone who studies history, politics, and society, is to simplify complex issues without losing the truth. That’s what a good analyst is supposed to do. And I’m not simplifying this out of emotion. I’m simplifying it because of what I’ve seen with my own eyes. I’ve travelled to around 27 countries, lived and worked in many of them, and tried to understand what makes societies succeed. And I can say this confidently: I have never seen a single country in the world succeed while its army holds this much power over politics and refuses to accept the will of its own people.

Not one. Whenever generals interfere in political mandates, override democratic choice, or dictate national direction, the result is always instability, stagnation, or collapse. History is full of examples.

So my point is simple just as a good doctor identifies the real disease instead of writing a long report on symptoms, an honest analyst must point to the actual source of the problem. Once you diagnose the illness correctly, only then can you treat it.
 
Look, just like in a hospital you have different levels of surgeons and doctors some excellent, some average, some mediocre analysts also differ in how they approach a problem. My job, as someone who studies history, politics, and society, is to simplify complex issues without losing the truth. That’s what a good analyst is supposed to do. And I’m not simplifying this out of emotion. I’m simplifying it because of what I’ve seen with my own eyes. I’ve travelled to around 27 countries, lived and worked in many of them, and tried to understand what makes societies succeed. And I can say this confidently: I have never seen a single country in the world succeed while its army holds this much power over politics and refuses to accept the will of its own people.

Not one. Whenever generals interfere in political mandates, override democratic choice, or dictate national direction, the result is always instability, stagnation, or collapse. History is full of examples.

So my point is simple just as a good doctor identifies the real disease instead of writing a long report on symptoms, an honest analyst must point to the actual source of the problem. Once you diagnose the illness correctly, only then can you treat it.

I didn't have my thoughts streamlined when I first made the post and made some additional edits to it while you had replied, so you might want to read the post again because I might have not been cogent in my initial post 🥲

As for the power the military holds, I'm not disagreeing on that, but pointing out that the enablers of that power held by the institution is not the institution itself - which makes the problem complex.

Also, in good faith, I'd disagree with your point regarding the job of an analyst to simplify the complex - analysis, as an intellectual exercise, has it's rational foundation set in the abilitiy to understand the complex relationship b/w multiple variables, their co-relationships, and their causal chains (which usually can not be distilled down to single cause in a socio-political context given the interdependency of social groups, social institutions, and social systems)
 
I didn't have my thoughts streamlined when I first made the post and made some additional edits to it while you had replied, so you might want to read the post again because I might have not been cogent in my initial post 🥲

As for the power the military holds, I'm not disagreeing on that, but pointing out that the enablers of that power held by the institution is not the institution itself - which makes the problem complex.

Also, in good faith, I'd disagree with your point regarding the job of an analyst to simplify the complex - analysis, as an intellectual exercise, has it's rational foundation set in the abilitiy to understand the complex relationship b/w multiple variables, their co-relationships, and their causal chains (which usually can not be distilled down to single cause in a socio-political context given the interdependency of social groups, social institutions, and social systems)
I read your edited post, and I understand the angle you’re coming from. Yes, power structures are complex and no institution operates alone. Multiple political actors, elites, and interest groups form part of that network I’m not denying that.

But even in a complex system, there is always a central node that sets the actual direction. In Pakistan’s case, that node has remained the same since 1947 the one institution with enough coercive power to override, veto, or reshape every political outcome. When one actor consistently holds the ultimate veto, it becomes the primary driver, even if many other variables exist around it.

This isn’t oversimplification this is identifying the decisive point in the system. A good doctor knows the human body is complex but still diagnoses the root cause. A good analyst understands the many variables but still pinpoints the variable that actually determines the outcome. Complexity doesn’t mean every factor carries equal weight.

And if we look at Pakistan’s history honestly, the pattern is clear. Since independence, the military has ruled directly for decades and indirectly for almost the rest of the time. No elected prime minister has ever completed a five-year term, while every military ruler stayed as long as they wished. Even today, the prime minister is just a civilian face while real authority sits elsewhere. That alone shows which institution has had the longest, most uninterrupted influence.

But the crisis isn’t caused by one institution alone our society has helped create this environment too. We have normalised corruption to the point where we don’t even recognise it as wrong. People proudly take selfies with corrupt officials and post them as if it’s an achievement. The milkman mixes the milk. The cement factory cuts quality. The chili factory adulterates spices. The sugar mills manipulate supply and price. Even within families, brothers deprive sisters of their rightful inheritance.

This moral decline didn’t start today. After 1947, many genuine refugees who lost everything didn’t demand land, but locals filed fake claims and grabbed properties that weren’t theirs. That mindset corruption is fine if it benefits me.has been part of our society for decades. And it has consequences. In a society where corruption is socially acceptable, the most powerful coercive actor automatically gains more influence, because people consistently choose shortcuts instead of principles.

Even at the basic labour level, a mason will drag a one day job into a week if paid daily, but the same mason will finish a three month project in one week if given a fixed contract. That is how deeply corruption is embedded in our behaviour. And when society accepts corruption at every level, it naturally strengthens those who can exploit it at the highest level.

So yes, the system is complex but complexity doesn’t erase the central pivot that consistently determines the country’s direction. And acknowledging that pivot is not being simplistic; it is being honest about what the evidence shows over 75 years.

Only when we correctly diagnose the real disease both institutional imbalance and societal moral decay can we begin to treat it.
 
The BUDS Drownproofing is not a training exercise, it's a test exercise. The primary goal of Drownproofing is to assess the ability of the recruit to stay calm in adverse and overwhelming conditions.

So if you want to use that analogy, then in its correct analogous application it implies that IK failed the test - the "hands and legs tied" situation is an unfortunate reality of Pakistan political environment and wasn't just unique to his Premiership but was the same for all prior PMs.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying, establishment is at the root of Pakistan’s current problems, whether directly or indirectly.
  1. NFC Awards & Provincial Autonomy
  2. Control Over Power & Energy Sector
  3. Political Engineering & Democracy Disruption
  4. Economic Decision Interference
  5. Foreign Policy Overreach
  6. Security State Mindset vs. Development Model
  7. Media Manipulation & Narrative Control
  8. Judicial Pressure & Accountability System Weaponization
  9. Internal Security vs. Civil Administration
  10. Interference in Election
  11. Corruption & Land Allocation
  12. Education & Curriculum Direction

We are now witnessing A soft-coup. They’ve now stepped out of the shadows and exposed themselves before the world. It raises a real question. what will happen to the so called democratic ‘topi-drama’ now?.
 
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I have never seen a single country in the world succeed while its army holds this much power over politics and refuses to accept the will of its own people.

So look at this from the Army's point of view. It is great. For the people, not so much.

In other words, it is all in how this national "success" is defined.

There, it is very simply stated now. :D
 
I read your edited post, and I understand the angle you’re coming from. Yes, power structures are complex and no institution operates alone. Multiple political actors, elites, and interest groups form part of that network I’m not denying that.

But even in a complex system, there is always a central node that sets the actual direction. In Pakistan’s case, that node has remained the same since 1947 the one institution with enough coercive power to override, veto, or reshape every political outcome. When one actor consistently holds the ultimate veto, it becomes the primary driver, even if many other variables exist around it.

This isn’t oversimplification this is identifying the decisive point in the system. A good doctor knows the human body is complex but still diagnoses the root cause. A good analyst understands the many variables but still pinpoints the variable that actually determines the outcome. Complexity doesn’t mean every factor carries equal weight.

And if we look at Pakistan’s history honestly, the pattern is clear. Since independence, the military has ruled directly for decades and indirectly for almost the rest of the time. No elected prime minister has ever completed a five-year term, while every military ruler stayed as long as they wished. Even today, the prime minister is just a civilian face while real authority sits elsewhere. That alone shows which institution has had the longest, most uninterrupted influence.

But the crisis isn’t caused by one institution alone our society has helped create this environment too. We have normalised corruption to the point where we don’t even recognise it as wrong. People proudly take selfies with corrupt officials and post them as if it’s an achievement. The milkman mixes the milk. The cement factory cuts quality. The chili factory adulterates spices. The sugar mills manipulate supply and price. Even within families, brothers deprive sisters of their rightful inheritance.

This moral decline didn’t start today. After 1947, many genuine refugees who lost everything didn’t demand land, but locals filed fake claims and grabbed properties that weren’t theirs. That mindset corruption is fine if it benefits me.has been part of our society for decades. And it has consequences. In a society where corruption is socially acceptable, the most powerful coercive actor automatically gains more influence, because people consistently choose shortcuts instead of principles.

Even at the basic labour level, a mason will drag a one day job into a week if paid daily, but the same mason will finish a three month project in one week if given a fixed contract. That is how deeply corruption is embedded in our behaviour. And when society accepts corruption at every level, it naturally strengthens those who can exploit it at the highest level.

So yes, the system is complex but complexity doesn’t erase the central pivot that consistently determines the country’s direction. And acknowledging that pivot is not being simplistic; it is being honest about what the evidence shows over 75 years.

Only when we correctly diagnose the real disease both institutional imbalance and societal moral decay can we begin to treat it.

We have an agreement about the main node as it exists today but with a small caveat i.e. what you're diagnosing as a root cause, I'm diagnosing as the major symptom of the disease (since we are using medical analogy)

What I mean to say is that the institution didn't inherently had this political power but seized it, and since this happened very early on in the history of Pakistan, it points out that the underlying conditions/vacuum that enabled this (the real root problem/s) were already too pronounced - and to understand and identify those conditions we'd have to look at the socio-political dynamic at play in the years preceding the Independence and right after, which I think Oscar's post did.

The second half of your post is already supporting that the problem is not only limited to a single institution but also existed before it became as powerful as it is today.

A good doctor knows the human body is complex which is why they don't diagnose the most visible symptom as the main underlying disease. Similarly, a good analyst knows that in a complex system a single variable can only be decisive because of the feedback loops. I mean to say social systems aren't an electric circuit where the decisive node is a simple binary on/off gate.

To further understand where I'm disagreeing with you over the simplicity - suppose we take out the institution from the equation, does that automatically solve all of Pakistan's problems? Does it create any new set of problems?
 
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This is exactly what I’ve been saying, establishment is at the root of Pakistan’s current problems, whether directly or indirectly.
  1. NFC Awards & Provincial Autonomy
  2. Control Over Power & Energy Sector
  3. Political Engineering & Democracy Disruption
  4. Economic Decision Interference
  5. Foreign Policy Overreach
  6. Security State Mindset vs. Development Model
  7. Media Manipulation & Narrative Control
  8. Judicial Pressure & Accountability System Weaponization
  9. Internal Security vs. Civil Administration
  10. Interference in Election
  11. Corruption & Land Allocation
  12. Education & Curriculum Direction

We are now witnessing A soft-coup. They’ve now stepped out of the shadows and exposed themselves before the world. It raises a real question. what will happen to the so called democratic ‘topi-drama’ now?.

Yes, true, and that establishment is not just one single man/institution - that's what I and couple of other members are asserting.

We aren't disagreeing on the root but the number of roots.
 
Yes, true, and that establishment is not just one single man/institution - that's what I and couple of other members are asserting.

We aren't disagreeing on the root but the number of roots.

To blame everything on the establishment is not correct. They may do wrong things at the highest level of office but who fails to give justice to the poor and weak awaam in the villages, cities. Its always the local civilian baradari mafias, the politicians, and then the same politician select police officers, judges. Everything is done under the table. The good people can only stay quiet, the poor suffer until they become rich and then break all records in corruption and bribery. Sorry to say but its the mentality of the nation that needs to be changed. The army mainly looks after the borders, internal and national security, international relations, if all these are given to the civilians we will be in worse situation. People downplay the influence civilian leadership has in Pakistan.
 
To blame everything on the establishment is not correct. They may do wrong things at the highest level of office but who fails to give justice to the poor and weak awaam in the villages, cities. Its always the local civilian baradari mafias, the politicians, and then the same politician select police officers, judges. Everything is done under the table. The good people can only stay quiet, the poor suffer until they become rich and then break all records in corruption and bribery. Sorry to say but its the mentality of the nation that needs to be changed. The army mainly looks after the borders, internal and national security, international relations, if all these are given to the civilians we will be in worse situation. People downplay the influence civilian leadership has in Pakistan.

Very rightly pointed out and I agree with you that establishment isn't the entire problem but this can only be acknowledged by those who acknowledge that establishment isn't a single man/institution to begin with. I hope you understand what I'm hinting at? 😉
 
Very rightly pointed out and I agree with you that establishment isn't the entire problem but this can only be acknowledged by those who acknowledge that establishment isn't a single man/institution to begin with. I hope you understand what I'm hinting at? 😉

The main issue i see if the military rule, PPP rule, Pmln rule, hybrid regime all failed. So what are we supposed to do now? Or is this normal in a under developed nation like Pakistan. We should compare ourselves to Bangladesh, Nigeria and Egypt. I don't think their is much difference. I have visited Egypt for a month, and notice its similar to Pakistan in most ways. Turkey Indonesia Malaysia are 95% literacy rate nations, with alot of highly educated and disciplined society, they are levels above us.

The frustration with events from 2011 is we all wanted a new thinking in Pakistan, new party, a party that wants to make major reforms, upgrade the state, rule of law, work on education, help the youth, help the poor, new ideas and even that has gone down the dustbin. This is what frustrates everyone.

For the future - The new PDM hybrid regime will be responsible for everything, they have noone else to blame. They have been in power for a few years and terrorism is still here, corruption and bribery is at record levels. They need to do the work rather than point fingers at Adiala jail but they continue to do it, its just old politics of blame.
 
To further understand where I'm disagreeing with you over the simplicity - suppose we take out the institution from the equation, does that automatically solve all of Pakistan's problems? Does it create any new set of problems?
The root cause of the rot in Pakistan today is the army. To answer your question, if you remove the army from the equation will all problems be solved ? Yes I believe so.

Pakistan needs merely to run according to its constitution and let its politics , its institutions, its culture and its people mature and evolve. All the problems will be solved by these forces themselves, just like they are in normal countries worldwide. Pakistan needs to be a normal country.

The army has refused to allow the politics or institutions or people or economy or civil society to grow and mature, instead it has stunted and degraded everything except itself. The army has refused to let Pakistanis live in a normal country.

So now that Imran Khan is openly calling out this army, its ugly mindset and its treacherous destructive ways, he should be supported. It doesn't matter what Imran did in the past.
 
Yes, true, and that establishment is not just one single man/institution - that's what I and couple of other members are asserting.

We aren't disagreeing on the root but the number of roots.

Have heard the example of Shaitan and Major Gobar Arya ? Even though both are our enemy but even once Shaitan had spoken the truth. Decipher Gobar Arya’s vomit and you will find some traces of truth in it.
How a Pakistani elite class (certain families) with the backing of military leadership are running the show.
 
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