PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[AeronautIR]

is this till the case the tweet is firm 2024

I think so because according to my knowledge PAF has not ordered a 3rd sqn yet... we may see upgrades of blk 2 and just export orders being fulfilled if we get J-35 by 2027 after evaluation... it that is delayed, another sqn can be ordered.
Also, it depends on timeline of PFX too. We may or may not go for JF-17 blk 3 depending upon pace of that project. I think PAF has a very good hedging strategy with multiple options for procurement plans in near future
And I have not mentioned KAAN here because of its American engine, but it's always on the table with Turkish or Chinese engine. Let's see what happens in 2026.
Interesting times.

 

[Ak01]

Again, how? Brahmos made a crater but couldn't stop the takeoff by rendering the runway inoperable... it can't hit aircraft parked in HAS... the number of Surface launchers and Brahmos capable Su-30 are quite limited.

with all due respect, i disagree with your assessment.

Whats there to say it cant target HAS?

India has about 2000+ BrahMos in stocks, all we need is a shock and awe style attack.

Heck, even if we assume for a second all fighters are protected, that theyre impossible to destroy due to HAS etc, enabling assets etc are not in HAS, theyre very vunerable to attacks and will be attacked.

We can bury our heads in the sand, this wont help us though, it will lead to serious losses, or we can address the reality and figure out a way of ensuring safety of our assets.

Runway craters are expected, but the asset losses that can come with runway destruction cant be repaired in a few hours though

 

[AeronautIR]

with all due respect, i disagree with your assessment.

Whats there to say it cant target HAS?

India has about 2000+ BrahMos in stocks, all we need is a shock and awe style attack.

Heck, even if we assume for a second all fighters are protected, that theyre impossible to destroy due to HAS etc, enabling assets etc are not in HAS, theyre very vunerable to attacks and will be attacked.

We can bury our heads in the sand, this wont help us though, it will lead to serious losses, or we can address the reality and figure out a way of ensuring safety of our assets.

Runway craters are expected, but the asset losses that can come with runway destruction cant be repaired in a few hours though

And I respect your opinion but here is the thing. Before we talk about whether Brahmos can penetrate HAS or not, it doesn't matter if India has thousands more Brahmos. The Air launched version is most accurate with only 2 Su-30 sqn capable of carrying it. Surface launched version is less accurate and it doesn't hit with same precision like ALCM, not to mention even their TELs are limited, so can't be fired in hundreds. The navy can't come close to Karachi and can't threaten any base above the coastal belt.
I think they have 1500 in total and if we are talking about PAF bases except in Karachi, IAF and IA can't launch even 200 Brahmos at any given time.

 

[Bilal]

Ok, before we talk about whether Brahmos can penetrate HAS or not, it doesn't matter if India has thousands more Brahmos. The Air launched version is most accurate with only 2 Su-30 sqn capable of carrying it. Surface launched version is less accurate and it doesn't hit with same precision like ALCM, not to mention even their TELs are limited, so can't be fired in hundreds. The navy can't come close to Karachi and can't threaten any base above the coastal belt.
I think they have 1500 in total and if we are talking about PAF bases except in Karachi, IAF and IA can't launch even 200 Brahmos at any given time.

We have to think beyond Brahmos. They don’t employ other weapons system like Pralay, etc. in the last conflict.

 

[AeronautIR]

We have to think beyond Brahmos. They don’t employ other weapons system like Pralay, etc. in the last conflict.

And we didn't use any of our cruise missiles. Actually, we are better off in this sense because we still have more cards than them to play in future conflicts.

 

[Toxic]

And I respect your opinion but here is the thing. Before we talk about whether Brahmos can penetrate HAS or not, it doesn't matter if India has thousands more Brahmos. The Air launched version is most accurate with only 2 Su-30 sqn capable of carrying it. Surface launched version is less accurate and it doesn't hit with same precision like ALCM, not to mention even their TELs are limited, so can't be fired in hundreds. The navy can't come close to Karachi and can't threaten any base above the coastal belt.
I think they have 1500 in total and if we are talking about PAF bases except in Karachi, IAF and IA can't launch even 200 Brahmos at any given time.

Don't you think even 200 is too much to handle?

 

[Bilal]

And we didn't use any of our cruise missiles. Actually, we are better off in this sense because we still have more cards than them to play in future conflicts.

Absolutely, neither did we create shock and awe with massive REK/H4 employment.

Which in my opinion was a mistake, this enemy does not need to be shown higher moral ground and so much restraint. Had we created enough visuals it would have broken the narrative and demoralized the fake news factory of a nation they are.
They would have been at each other’s neck as an aftermath. But I digress.

I was talking in terms of threats we might face, counter that will be needed and damage we will need to factor in.

 

[AeronautIR]

Absolutely, neither did we create shock and awe with massive REK/H4 employment.

Which in my opinion was a mistake, this enemy does not need to be shown higher moral ground and so much restraint. Had we created enough visuals it would have broken the narrative and demoralized the fake news factory of a nation they are.
They would have been at each other’s neck as an aftermath. But I digress.

I was talking in terms of threats we might face, counter that will be needed and damage we will need to factor in.

I think at grand strategic level, there are other issues apart from military which needed to be factored in. At tactical level, I agree with you that we should have thrashed them. However, as an IR student, I will cut the leadership some slack due to economic, foreign policy, geopolitical realities.

 

[Ibbi32]

Don't you think even 200 is too much to handle?

Not really. The launchers are too far spread out to really concentrate on one target or area and a large amount would be held in reserve. The bigger problem is the 200+ brahmos IN can launch at a time against Karachi for example

 

[Ak01]

And I respect your opinion but here is the thing. Before we talk about whether Brahmos can penetrate HAS or not, it doesn't matter if India has thousands more Brahmos. The Air launched version is most accurate with only 2 Su-30 sqn capable of carrying it. Surface launched version is less accurate and it doesn't hit with same precision like ALCM, not to mention even their TELs are limited, so can't be fired in hundreds. The navy can't come close to Karachi and can't threaten any base above the coastal belt.
I think they have 1500 in total and if we are talking about PAF bases except in Karachi, IAF and IA can't launch even 200 Brahmos at any given time.

but this is the issue, we dont need to see pinpoint accuracy, we only need to see enough of a mass attack for it to get lucky.

They only need to get lucky once, we need to get lucky every time.

HAS may not be sufficient, we saw the effectiveness of HAS against modern munitions is kinda debatable- yes, its true that BrahMos warhead is not optimised for this, but its sheer amount of kinetic energy etc could do the job. The point really is just that we should not underplay the threat, rather, overplaying the threat even allows us to ensure we are covered from every angle, i would rather this, than be complacent that BrahMos strikes from India are limited, not enough launchers etc etc. When wartime hits, you'll see all sorts of jugaad

 

[Ak01]

And we didn't use any of our cruise missiles. Actually, we are better off in this sense because we still have more cards than them to play in future conflicts.

but the issue is, we didnt use them because we simply just dont have enough.- i guess i cant be certain, but im very sure that we simply just dont have enough from what i see.

 

[Bilal]

I think at grand strategic level, there are other issues apart from military which needed to be factored in. At tactical level, I agree with you that we should have thrashed them. However, as an IR student, I will cut the leadership some slack due to economic, foreign policy, geopolitical realities.

Yes my apologies, that was my digression. The main point was:

“I was talking in terms of threats we might face, counter that will be needed and damage we will need to factor in.”

We should not get tunnel visioned by Brahmos.

 

[Ak01]

Absolutely, neither did we create shock and awe with massive REK/H4 employment.

But we literally cannot do this.

One H4 requires 2 mirage's.

So at best, we can launch what, 15, 20 at a push?

Infact, going into India to launch H4s with large mirage packages probably would have been a death wish. Best suited to dropping bombs on advancing indian formations

 

[Ak01]

We should not get tunnel visioned by Brahmos.

You can call it BrahMos tunnel vision, or you can replace it with Pralay, or whatever you want. The reality is the BrahMos is their foremost strike weapon, and can be deployed widely against a variety of targets.

 

[Toxic]

Not really. The launchers are too far spread out to really concentrate on one target or area and a large amount would be held in reserve. The bigger problem is the 200+ brahmos IN can launch at a time against Karachi for example

Even just 100 launches can keep multiple Airbases offline for hours even assuming a 60% interception rate that's still 40 missiles going through that will have massive effect on sortie rates during the initial phase of a conflict.