PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[Oscar]

Actually, this is my personal opinion. PAF has been war gaming non-stop since May and their plans against such threats are already underway.
I didn't say it wasn't a threat but the discussion started on the point whether Brahmos can knock PAF out even for few hours and my answer is no, it can't.
About precision, if they are launching about 150 Brahmos and they know around 80% will be intercepted, the rest 20% must find their mark, just like the air-launched ones. Otherwise, there will be hits but not much impact.
If I were an Indian, I would literally slap everyone who was responsible for Su-30 upgrade. Those missiles definitely have pinpoint accuracy. Lucky for us, they don’t have them in numbers.

The ground systems can/have precision but the reliance on positioning vs terminal vs direct sensors - and their overall relationship to cost matters.

For e.g. Pakistan has babur variants including some with combination of terprom and CCD seekers - the ability to come in from a targets bullseye 270 and swing around to hit a window on the 2nd floor that is at 090. The bullet train that is Brahmos simply cannot do that due to physics and thats the trade off with the speed or they build the whole thing to +\-60g specs which has its own impossibilities to it.

 

[Oscar]

Either way - we’re all digressing from the J-10.
Which so far doesn’t have standoff as part of its mission.

 

[AeronautIR]

Sir How many F4s do you think ARFC has? Maybe a few dozen at most, F2s can't IAF bases deeper into India

Absolutely no idea but that was not the point. I was talking about the gaps in roles. How will IAF cover the gap in aerial engagements?

 

[Ibbi32]

Absolutely no idea but that was not the point. I was talking about the gaps in roles. How will IAF cover the gap in aerial engagements?

Saar s-400 will save india saar

 

[AeronautIR]

still years before they are a real threat to India .

Guess we will see in next conflict.

 

[Bilal]

Either way - we’re all digressing from the J-10.
Which so far doesn’t have standoff as part of its mission.

Which brings us back to the question. Achieve air superiority for what end? It’s a means to an end isn’t it?

@HemlockKhalid/AeronautIR

 

[rafale]

I don't know whether you will consider me a credible source or not but PAF has planned acquisition of 2 sqn each of J-10C and J-35.
Apart from these, the plans to upgrade F-16 or PFX project's pace will become clear in a year or so. With 2 JF-17 blk 3 squadrons and may be upgrade of block 2 with AESA is more than enough for current IAF inventory. Any new capability like more Rafale, Tejas Mk2 or even if they go for Su-57 is literally years away.

I agree 100% with your assessment here.......the numbers of combat aircraft you see in PAF that is routinely quoted as 400+ jets, is not gonna remain same when as 1 on 1 replacement will not be done.

PAF will settled more towards a 250-300 combat jets, but 90% or more will be equipped with AESA radars....which along with PL15 and AIM120Ds will pretty much take care of IAF for the next decade. There is no chance India can get anything superior in that timeline....no chance...because there is none available in the market. It still isn't even confirmed what the actual use status of Meteors is on Rafales....and this is almost 5 years after India got them.....funny isn't it. And current Meteor is already behind combat test + range validation.

So PAF is taking it nice and easy....preserve funds, see how the relations with US go. If we can get the V kits, it will be double bonus.

 

[hussain0216]

I know Azerbaijan is going to opt for Turkish missiles etc.

How were the Turkish missiles etc incorporated into the JF17?

Did Pakistan do it, does Pakistan have this capability and codes etc to do this, or did China agree to do it

 

[AeronautIR]

Either way - we’re all digressing from the J-10.
Which so far doesn’t have standoff as part of its mission.

J-10? I thought we were discussing about the question whether Brahmos can knock out multiple bases or not.
Wrong thread.

 

[Bratva]

@HemlockKhalid/AeronautIR

It wasn't just runaway craters. PAF Muridke C&C building destroyed with pinpoint accuracy. and an underground munition store was hit with a precise bunker buster french missile. PAF Bholari was hit with precise Brahmos strike which caused the deaths of 8 PAF personnel and a possible SAAB Damage. Nur Khan Base was precisely hit and 2 non-functional truck which were used to host mobile C&C was destroyed and a building with it and also C-130 damaged which was parked nearby. PAF Jacobabad hangar was precisely targeted. Sukkur airbase hangar precisely targeted. Rahim yar Khan airport destroyed.

Even if 20% brahmos goes through is enough to damage the PAF bases considerably and affect the operations to large extent. We are making the same mistake indians makes, underplay their long range sticks. They have plenty and can cause considerable damages with pinpoint accuracy.

What we have? Strategic restraint and huge talk of "hidden surprises".

 

[Oscar]

Which brings us back to the question. Achieve air superiority for what end? It’s a means to an end isn’t it?

@HemlockKhalid/AeronautIR

In this case you ensure that your strike assets can operate during that defined timeframe in relative safety.

 

[Toxic]

Which brings us back to the question. Achieve air superiority for what end? It’s a means to an end isn’t it?

@HemlockKhalid/AeronautIR

Surviving and getting a ceasefire on decent terms realistically they don't have any plans beyond that except pressing the big red button, all this talk of reclaiming rest of Kashmir or whatever is just bravado truth is rest of Kashmir was lost in 65' and unless some sort of economic miracle happens tomorrow that isn't going to change.

 

[Bilal]

In this case you ensure that your strike assets can operate during that defined timeframe in relative safety.

Yes that is what I was eluding to but it became (is becoming) an end in itself. As soon after achieving it we start talking about off ramps and strategic restraints.

 

[Oscar]

It wasn't just runaway craters. PAF Muridke C&C building destroyed with pinpoint accuracy. and a n underground munition store was hit with a precise bunker buster french missile. PAF Bholari was hit with precise Brahmos strike which caused the deaths of 8 PAF personnel and a possible SAAB Damage. Nur Khan Base was precisely hit and 2 non-functional truck which were used to host mobile C&C was destroyed and a building with it along with damaged C-130. PAF Jacobabad hangar was precisely targeted.

Even if 20% brahmos goes through is enough to damage the PAF bases considerable and affect the operations to large extent. We are making the same mistake indians does, underplaying the Indian long range sticks. They have plenty and can cause considerable damages with pinpoint accuracy.

What we have? Strategic restraint and huge talk of "hidden surprises".

I agree the need to be critical but if that Brahmos was truly pinpoint the Saab would not have survived. It was a case of hit on a particular location and mass of missile carrying debris through. I saw a pic from someone who was a 100m off.

Bachat hogayi comparatively despite the loss of life.

And all things considered, there is no way in hell PAF has enough funds to ensure everything is caught.

The biggest issue here isn’t 20% getting through but that no Quick response was available to target the launchers once tracks were picked up.

Scud hunting in 91 was a nightmare for combined NATO forces because they had no idea where Scud locations were or potential storage sites- in your case you know where they have their hardened storage, launch areas - sat coverage.

Etc.

 

[AeronautIR]

It wasn't just runaway craters. PAF Muridke C&C building destroyed with pinpoint accuracy. and an underground munition store was hit with a precise bunker buster french missile. PAF Bholari was hit with precise Brahmos strike which caused the deaths of 8 PAF personnel and a possible SAAB Damage. Nur Khan Base was precisely hit and 2 non-functional truck which were used to host mobile C&C was destroyed and a building with it along with damaged C-130. PAF Jacobabad hangar was precisely targeted. Sukkur airbase hangar precisely targeted. Rahim yar Khan airport destroyed.

Even if 20% brahmos goes through is enough to damage the PAF bases considerable and affect the operations to large extent. We are making the same mistake indians does, underplaying the Indian long range sticks. They have plenty and can cause considerable damages with pinpoint accuracy.

What we have? Strategic restraint and huge talk of "hidden surprises".

Murid C2 wasn't destroyed even after a direct hit. Without bunker busters, underground structures can't be taken out with a single hit.
Underplaying is a genuine concern but so is way overestimating any threat.