Babur-Class (MILGEM) Corvette | Updates & Discussion

[flyingorca]

If this retrofit is possible, perhaps the FM-90 launcher can be replaced with the gun.

Fm-90 sits on top of control room. The main gun has ammo magazine which will free up some space.

 

[Waz]

A NICE turnaround from the Navy that would originally be forced to "beg" for used Oliver Hazard Perry class ships to now getting the latest platforms from its friends.

I forgot to add the four Damen corvettes, which are quite capable.
The navy has made a massive leap. It was always the weak point. Soon the submarines will join.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[ghazi52]

President of the Republic of Türkiye , H.E. Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, graced the commissioning ceremony of Pakistan Navy’s MILGEM Corvette, PNS KHAIBAR, as the Chief Guest.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[ghazi52]

 

[PakistaniDefender]

Finally the PN is becoming a strong force by global standards.
So these will join the advanced Type 54B's in service. 2 more Babur's to come. We have the F-22's which are ok.

Then work starts on the Jinnah class.

We don't have Type 054Bs. We desperately need some Type-52Ds

 

[Tank131]

Finally the PN is becoming a strong force by global standards.
So these will join the advanced Type 54B's in service. 2 more Babur's to come. We have the F-22's which are ok.

Then work starts on the Jinnah class.

No 054B...Just 4 054A, with only 32 40km range SAMs and 4 CM-302. Underarmed if you ask me. The Baburs as well are Underarmed. 6-8 Harbah is ok, but only 12 CAMM-ER. They DESPERATELY need to have a better SAM solution whether its 2 4x4 cells of MIDLAS which are then fitted with CAMM-ER (MAYBE in a future MLU in 10-15 years) or a 20 cell Goksur (more likely) in the CIWS spot.

In what world are the F-22P alright? Out dated sensors under-ranged and low numbered weapons. Badly needs refit. Would try for something akin to what istif class uses (Genesis Advent CMS controlling CENK-400, ALPER-LPI radar, Ares 2N ECM and AKR-D fire control radar in an integrated mast) replacing the type 517 and 360 radars in a unified mast along Hizar Torpedo decoy system. Would then move the Type 347 radar to where the 517 currently sits and remove the structure currently housing rear the 347. That would allow you the space for an aft 20 cell Goksur PDMS. In place of the FM-90 you could place an 8 cell MIDLAS (gotta Integrate CAMM-ER or move on to G/M-1 (Quad packed Hizar RF)). IF the cost of that is too much, could also replace FM-90 with another 20 cell Goksur. The first configuration would allow for 32 medium range SAMs and 20 short range SAM (15km) and keeps your 2 gun based CIWS. In the 2nd config you would have 40 short range (15km) SAMs. Either would dramatically improve survival against all threats, along with far greater situations awareness. Replace c-802 with SMASH and you have a far superior frigate than anything you could get for the price (probably $60-70M/ship when you look compare with the roughly $40-50M/ship upgrade done by Thai for the Naresuan class (new CMS, new radars, new mk-41 vls for ESSM). FOR F-22P you would also add at least 1 Goksur and better radars and the Ares 2N/Hizar systems and adjust for inflation, hence the higher price).

Replacement for F-22P with more Tughrails or Baburs/JCF would be much more expensive. Tughrails were ~$350M/ship and Baburs were ~$375M/ship. JCF will likely be ~$380-390/ship. Could upgrade all 4 F-22P for the cost of less than 1 new vessel

 

[Oscar]

. Could upgrade all 4 F-22P for the cost of less than 1 new vessel

While not a primary concern - the overall human friendly environment rating of the F-22P is considered much lower than the “older” Alamgir.

 

[Ak01]

No 054B...Just 4 054A, with only 32 40km range SAMs and 4 CM-302. Underarmed if you ask me. The Baburs as well are Underarmed. 6-8 Harbah is ok, but only 12 CAMM-ER. They DESPERATELY need to have a better SAM solution whether its 2 4x4 cells of MIDLAS which are then fitted with CAMM-ER (MAYBE in a future MLU in 10-15 years) or a 20 cell Goksur (more likely) in the CIWS spot.

In what world are the F-22P alright? Out dated sensors under-ranged and low numbered weapons. Badly needs refit. Would try for something akin to what istif class uses (Genesis Advent CMS controlling CENK-400, ALPER-LPI radar, Ares 2N ECM and AKR-D fire control radar in an integrated mast) replacing the type 517 and 360 radars in a unified mast along Hizar Torpedo decoy system. Would then move the Type 347 radar to where the 517 currently sits and remove the structure currently housing rear the 347. That would allow you the space for an aft 20 cell Goksur PDMS. In place of the FM-90 you could place an 8 cell MIDLAS (gotta Integrate CAMM-ER or move on to G/M-1 (Quad packed Hizar RF)). IF the cost of that is too much, could also replace FM-90 with another 20 cell Goksur. The first configuration would allow for 32 medium range SAMs and 20 short range SAM (15km) and keeps your 2 gun based CIWS. In the 2nd config you would have 40 short range (15km) SAMs. Either would dramatically improve survival against all threats, along with far greater situations awareness. Replace c-802 with SMASH and you have a far superior frigate than anything you could get for the price (probably $60-70M/ship when you look compare with the roughly $40-50M/ship upgrade done by Thai for the Naresuan class (new CMS, new radars, new mk-41 vls for ESSM). FOR F-22P you would also add at least 1 Goksur and better radars and the Ares 2N/Hizar systems and adjust for inflation, hence the higher price).

Replacement for F-22P with more Tughrails or Baburs/JCF would be much more expensive. Tughrails were ~$350M/ship and Baburs were ~$375M/ship. JCF will likely be ~$380-390/ship. Could upgrade all 4 F-22P for the cost of less than 1 new vessel

I think the PN is in a weird position, really, i cannot think of a ship, available on the market, that can meet our needs well.

They all lack, in many ways.

I do think we missed the mark with the Babur's and perhaps, even Jinnah, not to mention 054'As.

One key thing, none of the PN's surface fleet is equipped with towed array sonar? i dont really understand the PN's intention for ASW. Yes, im aware we rely heavily on aircraft based solutions, but really, we only have a handful of aircraft, helicopters are next to none for ASW and drones are only just coming into the play, that said, towed array's bring their own merits to the game and are highly beneficial to ASW ops, lacking in them fleetwide is a pretty weird decision on the part of the PN. Heck, they even deleted them on the 054A for cost savings.

Next up is the VLS, the PN knows the swarm threat is real, the IN will try and overwhelm defenses- why did we end up with designs we know are limited in their defensive abilities?

I could go on, but i do think the israelis offer an interesting solution via the Sa'ar class

The PN surface has a similar wartime mandate to the Israeli's, protect maritime shipping within Israel's EEZ and also their offshore oil. Basically, we could translate this to "protect karachi and shipping".

Based off of this, particularly after '71, AD should have been the navy's priority.



The Sa'ar 6 is a pretty neat little ship, and i do think its a pretty good model for the PN for what they should have sought after in a ship.

They prioritise AD, while making cutbacks elsewhere. Now, im not saying the hull is suited for our missions, because, simply, its not. The calmer waters of the med work alot better for this ship, but ours are much choppier.

But, what im trying to say is, the PN really needed to put its focus on 2 key areas, ASW and Air Defence, yet, it seems like we ditched it all for deep sea blue water capability...? Why?

I understand the PN has a significant role in diplomacy, great, but at the expense of capability?

The PN would be FAR better suited by a heavily armed set of coastal corvettes, designed to form an iron bubble along the coastline to prevent any Indian misadventure. Alongside this, have your few ASW assets or even 'diplomacy ships', but the key here should have been defensive ability, which we're lacking in serious capacity.

Another design i talk about alot, which i think is literally perfect:



The danes paid less per ship than we did for our Baburs... why?

They re used all the costly stuff, VLS, missile launchers etc. They modularised them. They're not hull specific, rather, can be deployed fleetwide.

This is genuinely amazing. Imagine you had 4 frigates, with 1 being down at all times... why buy 4 sets of everything, just buy 3, and rotate as needed. The same with their corvettes, you can fit them with MK41s, or more missiles, or sonar, etc etc. Its genius. Why the PN refuses to emulate these highly successful models is beyond me. Even Damen offers a similar system.

Just imagine the PN had gone for such a solution on babur, it could have done the same for Jinnah, then any new missile boat or corvette class etc, the possibilities would be endless.
For example, the PN could find that in 3 years, a new VLS is available better suited to it, instead of taking a ship out of action, integrate it into a container, and swap it on the next port visit, within 5/6 hours, you took your 12 VLS babur, into a ship with 32, 64, etc. If one day, the sub threat was high, pn urgently needed more ASW assets, no bother, the ship in port can be equipped in a few hours with a modern ASW suite, and deployed at sea to meet the shortfall...the possibilities we're endless, yet us, we refuse to innovate and forward think...



All of this, removable, within a few hours, to be transferred to another ship...

StanFlex - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Oscar]

I think the PN is in a weird position, really, i cannot think of a ship, available on the market, that can meet our needs well.

They all lack, in many ways.

I do think we missed the mark with the Babur's and perhaps, even Jinnah, not to mention 054'As.

One key thing, none of the PN's surface fleet is equipped with towed array sonar? i dont really understand the PN's intention for ASW. Yes, im aware we rely heavily on aircraft based solutions, but really, we only have a handful of aircraft, helicopters are next to none for ASW and drones are only just coming into the play, that said, towed array's bring their own merits to the game and are highly beneficial to ASW ops, lacking in them fleetwide is a pretty weird decision on the part of the PN. Heck, they even deleted them on the 054A for cost savings.

Next up is the VLS, the PN knows the swarm threat is real, the IN will try and overwhelm defenses- why did we end up with designs we know are limited in their defensive abilities?

I could go on, but i do think the israelis offer an interesting solution via the Sa'ar class

The PN surface has a similar wartime mandate to the Israeli's, protect maritime shipping within Israel's EEZ and also their offshore oil. Basically, we could translate this to "protect karachi and shipping".

Based off of this, particularly after '71, AD should have been the navy's priority.

View attachment 168391

The Sa'ar 6 is a pretty neat little ship, and i do think its a pretty good model for the PN for what they should have sought after in a ship.

They prioritise AD, while making cutbacks elsewhere. Now, im not saying the hull is suited for our missions, because, simply, its not. The calmer waters of the med work alot better for this ship, but ours are much choppier.

But, what im trying to say is, the PN really needed to put its focus on 2 key areas, ASW and Air Defence, yet, it seems like we ditched it all for deep sea blue water capability...? Why?

I understand the PN has a significant role in diplomacy, great, but at the expense of capability?

The PN would be FAR better suited by a heavily armed set of coastal corvettes, designed to form an iron bubble along the coastline to prevent any Indian misadventure. Alongside this, have your few ASW assets or even 'diplomacy ships', but the key here should have been defensive ability, which we're lacking in serious capacity.

Another design i talk about alot, which i think is literally perfect:

View attachment 168392

The danes paid less per ship than we did for our Baburs... why?

They re used all the costly stuff, VLS, missile launchers etc. They modularised them. They're not hull specific, rather, can be deployed fleetwide.

This is genuinely amazing. Imagine you had 4 frigates, with 1 being down at all times... why buy 4 sets of everything, just buy 3, and rotate as needed. The same with their corvettes, you can fit them with MK41s, or more missiles, or sonar, etc etc. Its genius. Why the PN refuses to emulate these highly successful models is beyond me. Even Damen offers a similar system.

Just imagine the PN had gone for such a solution on babur, it could have done the same for Jinnah, then any new missile boat or corvette class etc, the possibilities would be endless.
For example, the PN could find that in 3 years, a new VLS is available better suited to it, instead of taking a ship out of action, integrate it into a container, and swap it on the next port visit, within 5/6 hours, you took your 12 VLS babur, into a ship with 32, 64, etc. If one day, the sub threat was high, pn urgently needed more ASW assets, no bother, the ship in port can be equipped in a few hours with a modern ASW suite, and deployed at sea to meet the shortfall...the possibilities we're endless, yet us, we refuse to innovate and forward think...

View attachment 168393
View attachment 168394
All of this, removable, within a few hours, to be transferred to another ship...

StanFlex - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Having sat in a particular office in E-9(for delivering sweets to someone on my engagement and the chit chat between it and beyond), along with having a particularly strong connection with PN I can make a few guesses as to why the approach was taken.

Part of it was leadership especially during the PNS Mehran debacle era and part of it was lack of confidence in PN competence until the last few years(irrelevant to whether the opinions from the more prevalent branches was merited).

The F-22Ps were not the first choice or the second but a combined “Buy China” push that Musharraf or rather some sycophants close to him pushed for - also why you have the ZDKs.

Beyond that the PN was focused on trying to create more simple indigenous solutions through buying designs outright from China(depending upon what they were willing to provide at low cost with financing.., as we both have established contrary to popular belief it’s very much not deeper than oceans but business).

Back in the day when the Alamgir was taken the understanding was originally to get more OHPs and get the turks to upgrade combat systems and get ESSM or SYLVER or CAMM. OHPs would also bring the benefit of bringing the towed array as it was installed on the original long hull OHPs - whether PN chose to retain it or not is not known but if they selected to and were authorized you were ideally going to have 4 ships with towed array and decent AD as well.

Fate - and geopolitics have different ideas.

Fast forward to 2011 and Asif Zardari’s rape of Pakistan’s economy following the 2008 global crash all plans hinged on Chinese equipment including some rather poor performing Z-9s which do their job better as transports than ASW.

As the more pragmatic elements did start taking over PN the biggest concern was how to replace the leaky rust buckets in the Type-21s from a pure number of hulls and how to also provide more “muscle” support to the PMSA from both a piracy perspective but More so a real threat emerging of IN “boarding” Pakistan bound ships(yeah they were thinking of this) in a blockage move to be able to contest that somewhat.

So as funds get outlined it goes - Hull - primary sensors with modularity to support add ons- CIWS - ASuW -Close in ASW and then perhaps something of SAMs. What you suggest still requires more investment in paying for the full system even if its lego where the PN logic is more source from multiple places for redundancy and then get every hull to some baseline.

There is also another “groupthink” that has emerged.
In conflict the A2/AD will act more to not just secure ports but also PN sea assets with the PAF providing more longer ranged air cover.

I have doubts that swarming has been considered to the level by reliance on the A2/AD net to keep the longest vectors of the IN at bay in the fashion of Inshallah.

ASW then has fallen to a SOSUS net(which has turned out to be surprisingly effective or IN subs have zero noise discipline) , hull mount sensors , whatever is current P-3 to Sultan transition.

For that matter - IN in itself despite their better shinier toys seems to also find some level of threat in A2/AD and hoped to rely on IAF for precision strikes but best laid plans meet failure of systems for both mice and men.

Which also explains why there is a thinking shift on shelf and new brahmos batches for In having fully baked land attack modes.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

Having sat in a particular office in E-9(for delivering sweets to someone on my engagement and the chit chat between it and beyond), along with having a particularly strong connection with PN I can make a few guesses as to why the approach was taken.

Part of it was leadership especially during the PNS Mehran debacle era and part of it was lack of confidence in PN competence until the last few years(irrelevant to whether the opinions from the more prevalent branches was merited).

The F-22Ps were not the first choice or the second but a combined “Buy China” push that Musharraf or rather some sycophants close to him pushed for - also why you have the ZDKs.

Beyond that the PN was focused on trying to create more simple indigenous solutions through buying designs outright from China(depending upon what they were willing to provide at low cost with financing.., as we both have established contrary to popular belief it’s very much not deeper than oceans but business).

Back in the day when the Alamgir was taken the understanding was originally to get more OHPs and get the turks to upgrade combat systems and get ESSM or SYLVER or CAMM. OHPs would also bring the benefit of bringing the towed array as it was installed on the original long hull OHPs - whether PN chose to retain it or not is not known but if they selected to and were authorized you were ideally going to have 4 ships with towed array and decent AD as well.

Fate - and geopolitics have different ideas.

Fast forward to 2011 and Asif Zardari’s rape of Pakistan’s economy following the 2008 global crash all plans hinged on Chinese equipment including some rather poor performing Z-9s which do their job better as transports than ASW.

As the more pragmatic elements did start taking over PN the biggest concern was how to replace the leaky rust buckets in the Type-21s from a pure number of hulls and how to also provide more “muscle” support to the PMSA from both a piracy perspective but More so a real threat emerging of IN “boarding” Pakistan bound ships(yeah they were thinking of this) in a blockage move to be able to contest that somewhat.

Probably you meant E-8. Had many friends living in both these sectors few decades ago.

F-22P was probably PN's first major acquisition that wasn't effected by kickbacks after couple of decades (or atleast we never came to learn about). Unfortunately the kickbacks element was heavily present back then. Ex-CNS Admiral Mansurul haq's episode is all known ( Receiving kickbacks from French, He admitted to receiving millions - worth 2 year salary of entire force as reported). Then there were many reports of kickbacks in second hand type-21s and used mine-hunters. Operationally that old used european stuff was giving nightmares and Musharraf experienced it first hand during Kargil when Navy wasn't able to do a thing against blockade. Musharraf's decision to go for brand new chinese warships was crafted for all those experiences / reports he received from buying second hand western stuff. Musharraf wasn't strictly buy-china but based on information he had. Musharraf extracted Admiral mansurul haq from the US requesting Bush. Musharraf knew value of F-16s / AMRAAMs, He made those possible too.

Your discussion & experience about F-22P is right in its own context. But I also want to put in to record PN's statements after the induction. I remember one of the interviews after induction, It was maybe commander PN fleet or a high rank officer saying that one F-22P is more capable then entire fleet of our existing Type-21s (6 of them). Type-21s were really outdated and troublesome. Two type-21s were sunk/lost in Falkland wars too. So ofcourse, PN using and comparing with those would have loved any upgrade. F-22Ps were also PN's first brand new warships. We were always buying obsolete and retired warships of UK/US otherwise.

Overall I think F-22P wasn't a wrong decision back then (early 2000s). However it needs an upgrade now. F-22Ps have remained very active throughout its service. In all archived satellite photos of Karachi shipyard, very rarely we have seen F-22P in dry dock, mostly it used to be Type-21s or OHP. F-22Ps are regularly participating in the war exercises, port visits, rescue missions overseas, even integration of new weapons SMASH etc in recent tests. Hope it gets better air defense upgrade.

 

[Oscar]

Probably you meant E-8. Had many friends living in both these sectors few decades ago.

F-22P was probably PN's first major acquisition that wasn't effected by kickbacks after couple of decades (or atleast we never came to learn about). Unfortunately the kickbacks element was heavily present back then. Ex-CNS Admiral Mansurul haq's episode is all known ( Receiving kickbacks from French, He admitted to receiving millions - worth 2 year salary of entire force as reported). Then there were many reports of kickbacks in second hand type-21s and used mine-hunters. Operationally that old used european stuff was giving nightmares and Musharraf experienced it first hand during Kargil when Navy wasn't able to do a thing against blockade. Musharraf's decision to go for brand new chinese warships was crafted for all those experiences / reports he received from buying second hand western stuff. Musharraf wasn't strictly buy-china but based on information he had. Musharraf extracted Admiral mansurul haq from the US requesting Bush. Musharraf knew value of F-16s / AMRAAMs, He made those possible too.

Your discussion & experience about F-22P is right in its own context. But I also want to put in to record PN's statements after the induction. I remember one of the interviews after induction, It was maybe commander PN fleet or a high rank officer saying that one F-22P is more capable then entire fleet of our existing Type-21s (6 of them). Type-21s were really outdated and troublesome. Two type-21s were sunk/lost in Falkland wars too. So ofcourse, PN using and comparing with those would have loved any upgrade. F-22Ps were also PN's first brand new warships. We were always buying obsolete and retired warships of UK/US otherwise.

Overall I think F-22P wasn't a wrong decision back then (early 2000s). However it needs an upgrade now. F-22Ps have remained very active throughout its service. In all archived satellite photos of Karachi shipyard, very rarely we have seen F-22P in dry dock, mostly it used to be Type-21s or OHP. F-22Ps are regularly participating in the war exercises, port visits, rescue missions overseas, even integration of new weapons SMASH etc in recent tests. Hope it gets better air defense upgrade.

Yep - E-8. Have to excuse my Isloo geography since I haven’t lived there since 2012.

Now Mansoor ul haq also initiated reforms in the Navy there were very good for personnel and organization.

Just so we understand that while damage is done, people aren’t black and white.
Same goes for Gen K, and other folks.

 

[puttputt]

Having sat in a particular office in E-9(for delivering sweets to someone on my engagement and the chit chat between it and beyond), along with having a particularly strong connection with PN I can make a few guesses as to why the approach was taken.

Part of it was leadership especially during the PNS Mehran debacle era and part of it was lack of confidence in PN competence until the last few years(irrelevant to whether the opinions from the more prevalent branches was merited).

The F-22Ps were not the first choice or the second but a combined “Buy China” push that Musharraf or rather some sycophants close to him pushed for - also why you have the ZDKs.

Beyond that the PN was focused on trying to create more simple indigenous solutions through buying designs outright from China(depending upon what they were willing to provide at low cost with financing.., as we both have established contrary to popular belief it’s very much not deeper than oceans but business).

Back in the day when the Alamgir was taken the understanding was originally to get more OHPs and get the turks to upgrade combat systems and get ESSM or SYLVER or CAMM. OHPs would also bring the benefit of bringing the towed array as it was installed on the original long hull OHPs - whether PN chose to retain it or not is not known but if they selected to and were authorized you were ideally going to have 4 ships with towed array and decent AD as well.

Fate - and geopolitics have different ideas.

Fast forward to 2011 and Asif Zardari’s rape of Pakistan’s economy following the 2008 global crash all plans hinged on Chinese equipment including some rather poor performing Z-9s which do their job better as transports than ASW.

As the more pragmatic elements did start taking over PN the biggest concern was how to replace the leaky rust buckets in the Type-21s from a pure number of hulls and how to also provide more “muscle” support to the PMSA from both a piracy perspective but More so a real threat emerging of IN “boarding” Pakistan bound ships(yeah they were thinking of this) in a blockage move to be able to contest that somewhat.

So as funds get outlined it goes - Hull - primary sensors with modularity to support add ons- CIWS - ASuW -Close in ASW and then perhaps something of SAMs. What you suggest still requires more investment in paying for the full system even if its lego where the PN logic is more source from multiple places for redundancy and then get every hull to some baseline.

There is also another “groupthink” that has emerged.
In conflict the A2/AD will act more to not just secure ports but also PN sea assets with the PAF providing more longer ranged air cover.

I have doubts that swarming has been considered to the level by reliance on the A2/AD net to keep the longest vectors of the IN at bay in the fashion of Inshallah.

ASW then has fallen to a SOSUS net(which has turned out to be surprisingly effective or IN subs have zero noise discipline) , hull mount sensors , whatever is current P-3 to Sultan transition.

For that matter - IN in itself despite their better shinier toys seems to also find some level of threat in A2/AD and hoped to rely on IAF for precision strikes but best laid plans meet failure of systems for both mice and men.

Which also explains why there is a thinking shift on shelf and new brahmos batches for In having fully baked land attack modes.

PN has also delegated more of the ASW job to submarines, hence their emphasis on acquiring more subs and prioritizing those ahead of FFGs.

If push comes to shove, the PN will shelve the Jinnah-class frigate for the sake of additional subs, be it Fincantieri/STM SWATS or Chinese S26s for shallow-water and ocean-going ops, respectively.

 

[Oscar]

PN has also delegated more of the ASW job to submarines, hence their emphasis on acquiring more subs and prioritizing those ahead of FFGs.

If push comes to shove, the PN will shelve the Jinnah-class frigate for the sake of additional subs, be it Fincantieri/STM SWATS or Chinese S26s for shallow-water and ocean-going ops, respectively.

I think it's also more of a fait accompli. Subs are easier to "force multiply" than surface assets which PN cannot match ever ship for ship or even 3:1 ship for ship with IN.