Gripen9
Trusted Member
Dil peh mat lein S/L Saab
PAF Conducts Successful Test Launch of Taimoor ALCM
- Thread starter Fatman17
- Start date
AeronautIR
HemlockKhalid
Heli can't fill that role but we tried it with CASA CN-235. As @side-winder has pointed out, not economically feasible for us in range and load carrying vs fuel consumption.
JamD
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Debate is always good as long as both sides accept the possibility of having their minds changed.
Since I have domain knowledge on these things I can tell you that yes, the named technologies are often present in both. And this is what AI is giving you. AI is best thought of as a calculator when it comes to math and as an average of the internet when it comes to topics like these. Unfortunately, the AI response has missed almost all nuance that I wrote about in my post. I will suggest please reread my post carefully and if you disagree with a specific point, you refute it separately with some argument/evidence/both. Otherwise a blanket claim that you disagree because AI says both Taimoor and SOMJ have the same technologies named in them is something a) basically impossible for me to respond to b) is not really an argument against what I wrote but a general disagreement. Your AI response has not addressed any of the points raised in my post.
This is not about inferiority complex of Asians. It is a verifiable fact that the Turkish arms industry is much more advanced than Pakistan's. If you think this fact is wrong then you are suffering from a superiority complex. If you need evidence please do some research on the internet or heck even ask your favorite AI.
Chaff/flares are quite bad and last resort defense that rarely work these days. And nowhere in my post did I mention them. This is why I want you to refute things I wrote in my post and not argue with some strawman called JamD.
Also, the "secret" defense is quite weak. I will give an example of why. I had a friend who made up numbers in a paper. When quizzed about it by reviewers he said oh its classified. So maybe there is some super secret capability but when you look at everything else it is hard to imagine that there is.
Yes, there is no alien tech in SOM. But PLEASE read my post - did I mention alien tech? It was about PRACTICAL things like size, weight, production capacity, testing. So for the umpteenth time, respond to my post if you'd like a debate and not to what you think I said.
AeronautIR
HemlockKhalid
Dil pe to nai but dimagh pe zarur lia hai. With all the claims of plans to change Pakistan's industrial base, the uncouth attitude of many here may be the reason why their strategy isn't working. But it is always easier to blame others instead of looking inwards.Dil peh mat lein S/L Saab
I am sure you know a Sqn Ldr doesn't have any say in top level decisions, but I doubt any senior officer will tolerate disrespect. Wo dil pe zarur letay hain.
im just going to jump in because im bored
Unfortunately Mr Psyko...there are a few areas where its very clear the Ra'ad lags behind!
Propulsion.
Have you noticed, pakistani missiles are HUGE compared to others, or similarly sized, yet, we're so limited on our reach? Why...? We're using the same, old powerplant tech from decades and decades ago, really, really high fuel consumption. Means we need to dedicate more space to fuel for the same reach, taking away space for electronics, sensors and payloads!
Sensors
now this is a bit of a weird one, because AWC has since the 80s been working on optronics. We did after all build an IRST system for the mirage. So, its not like we're totally new. Also, based off of the specs for the optronics on shahpar, we're looking at early/mid 2000's american tech. If you consider our position, im actually very happy with this, thats not at all a bad place to be in...however, we're naturally behind the turks. This though, i feel like is as a result of all of the sanctions on AWC due to the nuke stuff, anything exported to AWC is very heavily scrutinised, and thus, naturally a bit more limited capability wise. If given the resources, i think optronics is a key area for us to excel in, but naturally, we wont be able to. The Turks OTOH have been producing a wide spectrum of the kit, down to modern IIR seekers, so naturally, their products have been through alot more development, they also have more experience now too etc, so its going to be a bit of a toss up, but id argue based off the above that it does have a more capable seeker.
LO
I dont really like talking about stealth because its not as simple as X=Y. But, theres just one interesting example to note. Look at the pitot tube on the F-35
Its still designed in such a way to reduce its impact on its signature.
We're not too focused on this, as far as i know, som uses a different type of air data sensor for reduced signature.
My point with this is, theres clearly optimisations that could have bene made, but arent being, if you look, alot of these LO CM's follow the same formulas, but thats not the case here.
Basically, long story short- we're taking something old, and outdated to an extent and trying to adopt it to do other jobs too, that it might not do very well. A ton of space was dedicated to a warhead for example, but you dont need a huge one. Production facilities were likely limited too, as it was a strategic weapon, thus, costs are higher, it can be carried on limited aircraft etc etc. Theres actually alot of problems with taimoor/raad.
However...
now we're talking. I actually think i disagree with the both of you (sorry jamd!)- ditch raad, ditch som, hello rasoob and derivatives. We dont need huge warheads, we need smarter, smaller and stealthier, in other words, we need rasoob, a rasoob 250, a rasoob 500, a rasoob 150 heck, whatever, just give me lots of rasoobs.
Jokes aside, our future strike packages should be consisting of Rasoob's, AZB 81LR and REK TJ. I genuinely believe we need stuff like REK TJ in huge numbers to throw at any indian equiptment we can, with azb and rasoob to penetrate airspace. Screw heavy, limited and old cruise missiles.
puttputt
Registered Member
IMO, there's even a decent chance that the PAF will import ALCMs (be it from China or Turkiye) because, simply put, we cannot scale Ra'ad/Taimoor, even if the PAF (and I'm sure it does) wants to adopt Ra'ad/Taimoor in numbers.
The issue is that we cannot scale up production of our CMs to the numbers necessary for operational deployment. For proof, we need only look at our situation with drones. We have Shahpar 2 Block-2 and Shahpar 3 coming; however, the PAF procured Wing Loongs, TB2s, Akincis, while the PN and PA inducted the CH-4. Even when the armed forces want the system (such as Shahpar-series drones), the domestic production base can't scale.
It goes back to the same issue...how much are we going to dump on the plates of NESCOM or even PAC? NESCOM is R&D, and PAC is MRO; neither one was created for industrial-scale production.
If the PAF is serious about wide-scale ALCM deployment (and I'm sure it is seeing the investment the armed forces are making in InSAR satellites, as that will feed into high-fidelity mapping data, route-planning, etc), then I think we'll see the JF-17 loaded with a Chinese CM-XX or Turkish SOM/-J or even that Chakkar/Cakir missile.
However, if we want to scale up, we'd need to bring companies like Atlas Motors or Millat Tractors into the loop because they have some real-world knowledge of scaling up and down for demand. But for them to suddenly enter into munitions production, they'll need investment and tooling, and that will only come if we facilitate Turkish FDI into the private sector (that might help push the CNCs and other equipment into Pakistan as it would be Turkish-owned or co-owned with a local subsidiary).
Ra'ad, Taimoor, and Rasoob 250 can be 3X better than the Turkish ALCMs for all we care, but we'll only ever make 30 units a year. Our requirements, OTOH, would be 300+ (and soon) if we intend to leave more than sh!stains in India for Maxar to pick up. Our SOEs can't scale to those production levels.
Psyko70
Trusted Member
Hello sir,
Thanks for the reply. However in my defense I have never said superiority in pak texh I have said on par or equal that is not superiority but a balance. If I had said pakistan is more advanced than im wrong. I used Ai for the reason that what is available online Ai says so. But I have added bolded points which were in addition to what Ai said so I guess you must have misunderstood that its all Ai.
Turkish tech is good in many aspect. But Just like many european systems tested in ukraine war in long term many performed ok not best.
And i stick to it that asians have inferiority complex. Even Indians who are advanced then in many fields still are glued to western systems.
Pakistan with jf 17 and al khalid realized something that is owned is better than something bought from elsewhere.
Your post still did not give any logical or technical reasoning to say turkish som is better.
You said turkish tech is better than ours ? Sure it is maybe in all fields of military. But the discussion is on SOM and taimoor. I dont find anything to say SOM exceeds.
For the sack of respect I lastly want to say that why its always considered an argument I was summarising things of different in few days taking som as superior to taimoor I never said specifically you said, if its giving impression then no I didnt meant that. Not even you gave any technical aspect on why its better. You are think tank in the end as per forum so I think we members deserve some appreciation that without big access to things we talk logically and not entirely day dreaming.
Please ignore my post its fine I am nobody supporting my country and asking questions that in my domain are rightful.
Psyko70
Trusted Member
Thanks for responding appreciate your post, really clear to point and not disrespecting us ordinary members.im just going to jump in because im bored
Unfortunately Mr Psyko...there are a few areas where its very clear the Ra'ad lags behind!
Propulsion.
Have you noticed, pakistani missiles are HUGE compared to others, or similarly sized, yet, we're so limited on our reach? Why...? We're using the same, old powerplant tech from decades and decades ago, really, really high fuel consumption. Means we need to dedicate more space to fuel for the same reach, taking away space for electronics, sensors and payloads!
Sensors
now this is a bit of a weird one, because AWC has since the 80s been working on optronics. We did after all build an IRST system for the mirage. So, its not like we're totally new. Also, based off of the specs for the optronics on shahpar, we're looking at early/mid 2000's american tech. If you consider our position, im actually very happy with this, thats not at all a bad place to be in...however, we're naturally behind the turks. This though, i feel like is as a result of all of the sanctions on AWC due to the nuke stuff, anything exported to AWC is very heavily scrutinised, and thus, naturally a bit more limited capability wise. If given the resources, i think optronics is a key area for us to excel in, but naturally, we wont be able to. The Turks OTOH have been producing a wide spectrum of the kit, down to modern IIR seekers, so naturally, their products have been through alot more development, they also have more experience now too etc, so its going to be a bit of a toss up, but id argue based off the above that it does have a more capable seeker.
LO
I dont really like talking about stealth because its not as simple as X=Y. But, theres just one interesting example to note. Look at the pitot tube on the F-35
View attachment 170619
Its still designed in such a way to reduce its impact on its signature.
View attachment 170620
We're not too focused on this, as far as i know, som uses a different type of air data sensor for reduced signature.
My point with this is, theres clearly optimisations that could have bene made, but arent being, if you look, alot of these LO CM's follow the same formulas, but thats not the case here.
Basically, long story short- we're taking something old, and outdated to an extent and trying to adopt it to do other jobs too, that it might not do very well. A ton of space was dedicated to a warhead for example, but you dont need a huge one. Production facilities were likely limited too, as it was a strategic weapon, thus, costs are higher, it can be carried on limited aircraft etc etc. Theres actually alot of problems with taimoor/raad.
However...
now we're talking. I actually think i disagree with the both of you (sorry jamd!)- ditch raad, ditch som, hello rasoob and derivatives. We dont need huge warheads, we need smarter, smaller and stealthier, in other words, we need rasoob, a rasoob 250, a rasoob 500, a rasoob 150 heck, whatever, just give me lots of rasoobs.
Jokes aside, our future strike packages should be consisting of Rasoob's, AZB 81LR and REK TJ. I genuinely believe we need stuff like REK TJ in huge numbers to throw at any indian equiptment we can, with azb and rasoob to penetrate airspace. Screw heavy, limited and old cruise missiles.
However, you said some different type of sensor som uses but we dont have its data and its performance analysis. Too esrly to compare. That is what im saying again and again from what we have about both they are ok. But there is more info needed to conclude what is right.
Psyko70
Trusted Member
Hello sir thanks for post appreciated. Yes last para is really good. I liked and understood it. But the work has already started to make improvements to "production lacks"
we can make assumptions based off of other items in the same field for example their other optronic products/seekers
JamD
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
I am sorry that I couldn't give detailed explanations on each point you raised. I simply do not have enough free time to do that on a forum that doesn't pay me money lol. However, keep in mind you also didn't refute any of the specifics in my post and started discussing technologies present on the systems. However, I believe @Ak01 and @puttputt may have satisfied some of your questions. Again, I am sorry for not being more descriptive in my reply to you.
Just FYI I disagree vehemently that Pakistan's defense industry is on par with the Turkish. I have actually worked in Turkish defense industry and Pakistan's so I am quite well placed to judge this. Again, I've discussed this on this forum many times before in detail and cannot spend time repeating very long posts.
Michael
VIP Member
A useful and feasible reference idea.
=============================================================
Russia is producing a copy of the Iranian Shahed 136 UAV, with the local project named "Garpiya." However, the production process is as follows:
Russia has established a factory within China. Utilizing China's mature and complete industrial chain and related technologies, all components are manufactured in this factory. These components are then exported to Russia along with other components (such as engines) directly purchased from China.
After all the parts arrive at the Russian assembly plant, the final assembly is carried out by the Russian plant.
During production, some of the components' technology comes from other Chinese companies.
The Chinese factory is wholly owned by Russia. The development of subsequent upgraded models of this UAV is being conducted entirely in China.
=============================================================
Many of Pakistan's military products can be manufactured using this method.
Initially, it meets the needs of the military.
Once Pakistani technicians have mastered the relevant skills, they can return to Pakistan to set up corresponding factories. Ultimately, this will achieve 100% local manufacturing.
AeronautIR
HemlockKhalid
I agree, we have to look at the root cause without any prejudice. If we identify it wrongly due to whatever reason, the solution will be useless.
krash
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
but I doubt any senior officer will tolerate disrespect. Wo dil pe zarur letay hain.
I know it was in jest but that is where the problem lays. Pakistani military personnel, by and large, have never recognized their actual place in the country, both as an organization and as individual servicemen. Despite immense sacrifices and services otherwise, this has lost them public goodwill over and over again in a society that is not known to measure its responses. No officer holds any authority to tolerate or not tolerate anything coming from civilians, except in his/her civilian capacity.
Of course, not a trait limited to the military but it is most apparent there.
Last edited:
MS Sandhu
Registered Member
I think we are missing a key point here
Manufacturing facilities are designed according to product demand.
We are literally talking about manufacturing facilities that were designed to produce strategic weapons which are required in low numbers.
Only recently our focus shifted towards conventional weaponary production at home.
Now we have multiple designs to produce but our old style manufacturing facilities are not helping.
@JamD talking with my limited Industrial experience,companies put profit margin of at least 35% for things as simple as automotive coatings, some premier products are even sold at 50% pm.
And here we are talking about R&D intensive defence products.
For me ,If the Taimur can get the job done , military needs to put the money in shop floor.
Instead of buying SOM, it will be more productive to get Turkish help in expanding our production capabilities.
