UK to replicate CM Maryam’s ‘Suthra Punjab’ model: BBC

[VCheng]

Yes. A reminder is needed now and then. People get complicit over time. So, an occasional reminder or training is required. For the poor, more resources are required so that it can become a habit, even if they don't understand. Then we have to look at the surroundings that influence your standard. If you are doing 20% more cleaning, then you become satisfied (DHA vs Layari).
In a nutshell, that is why we cannot produce any quality product but in a micro environment (like some football unit or PAC, etc)

We can have the proverbial chicken or the egg debate. You can always argue what the ppl do when they don't have the luxury of waste-disposal. Guess what? I am lobbing that garbage out the door. I have no other option. Change in behavior - since the activation of waste/refuse collection in Punjab, people are using that mechanism. Karachiites have no option but to throw garbage out of their homes. Nothing embarrasses me more than to see the piles of garbage all over Karachi...but nobody is disposing it properly. Not KMC, not anyone else.

Similarly, fire-fighting equipment not being maintained, pilfered is whose responsibility? Not the citizens', rather the organizations that are responsible for that work.

I am highlighting that lack of basic civic services leads to off-putting behavior by the masses. When basic services are available, you will have some exceptions abusing the system, but most will adhere to using the services offered as we see in Lahore etc.

You both make good observations, but please consider the following:

What explains the above observations is the rampant and persistent exercise of unaccountable privileges from the very top, that makes everyone downstream try to emulate that behavior in whatever manner possible wherever they can - i.e. to get away with what they know is wrong to gain benefit or without any accountability.

That applies to organizations, and individuals alike, and makes for the overall social behaviors that we see in everyday life. Since those at the top will not change, nothing downstream can change for the better as well. Hence, modern day Pakistan.

I can expand that line of reasoning further, but I hope that the above suffices to lead us to the well known summary that a fish rots from the head.

 

[PakFactor]

That goes for the entire world. There is inherent responsibility with the individual, no denying that, but not having manhole covers, no fire-fighting equipment, no electricity or waste disposal system isn't in the hands of the individuals/citizenry. They have been demanding the same for 3 decades now. Someone has to take ownership instead of passing the buck and saying "those before us were no better".

I acknowledge Karachi’s infrastructure issues aren’t solely fixed by individuals, but leadership reflects society. If voters continue ethnic voting, patronage, corruption, and tolerating incompetence, the results stay the same. Citizens influence political culture that determines who can act, and blaming the government ignores the deeper issues. Until that changes, blaming only the government is just treating the symptom, not the cause.

With less than 2% education budget, how can anybody teach people about hygiene, civic sense and recycling advantages. People are living in 1900, deprived of basic rights. Not to mention that the majority of that budget goes to construction (ghost schools) by MNAs.

These MNAs come to power on the Army's back and pay bribes to get there. Then in turn, they take bribes to induct teachers, firemen, police etc. That kills the merit, and that is why you hear firemen cannot control fire (no training besides a lack of equipment).

So, it is directly related to people in power. If parents cannot teach good manners to children, it is the parents' fault.

Systemic failures like underfunded schools, corrupt MNAs, and weak institutions worsen problems, but they don’t absolve individuals of personal responsibility. Civic sense, hygiene, and respect for public space depend on habits and values learned at home, not formal education. Parents teach children behavior before the state gets involved.

If people discard trash, break rules, bribe officials, or tolerate corruption daily, no government—regardless of funding—can fix that. Institutions mirror the population because they’re staffed by those from the same backgrounds. So, the system matters, but home culture is equally crucial. Without it, even the best institutions will fail.

e.g., the military is staffed by individuals selected from the general population. It takes the best for the officer class and the lower end as soldiers. You can teach procedures, drills, and protocols, but you can’t erase the mindset shaped at home and in early life. If you study the behavior of both classes within this one institution, you will see that no matter the amount of education showered on them, or polish will remove the trace of character they've developed since their upbringing. The same ego, slyness, and shortcutting are evident in these institutions.

 

[Blain2]

I acknowledge Karachi’s infrastructure issues aren’t solely fixed by individuals, but leadership reflects society. If voters continue ethnic voting, patronage, corruption, and tolerating incompetence, the results stay the same. Citizens influence political culture that determines who can act, and blaming the government ignores the deeper issues. Until that changes, blaming only the government is just treating the symptom, not the cause.




Systemic failures like underfunded schools, corrupt MNAs, and weak institutions worsen problems, but they don’t absolve individuals of personal responsibility. Civic sense, hygiene, and respect for public space depend on habits and values learned at home, not formal education. Parents teach children behavior before the state gets involved.

If people discard trash, break rules, bribe officials, or tolerate corruption daily, no government—regardless of funding—can fix that. Institutions mirror the population because they’re staffed by those from the same backgrounds. So, the system matters, but home culture is equally crucial. Without it, even the best institutions will fail.

e.g., the military is staffed by individuals selected from the general population. It takes the best for the officer class and the lower end as soldiers. You can teach procedures, drills, and protocols, but you can’t erase the mindset shaped at home and in early life. If you study the behavior of both classes within this one institution, you will see that no matter the amount of education showered on them, or polish will remove the trace of character they've developed since their upbringing. The same ego, slyness, and shortcutting are evident in these institutions.

I think your post is more about the broader, macro situation with the culture/psyche of the nation. That isn't changing overnight. Perhaps you need a social-engineering campaign for that.

Easier is my contention, which is to give Karachiites the facilities that are being offered to Lahoris and you will see a sea-change in how Karachi looks.

 

[Feroze]

I thought Maryam Nawaz wants to make Punjab like Japan.

 

[PakFactor]

I think your post is more about the broader, macro situation with the culture/psyche of the nation. That isn't changing overnight. Perhaps you need a social-engineering campaign for that.

Easier is my contention, which is to give Karachiites the facilities that are being offered to Lahoris and you will see a sea-change in how Karachi looks.

If the political culture and the underlying political behavior of the voter base don't change, no amount of money thrown at the problem will solve it. As @VCheng has alluded, the rot starts from the head; you will have to find a way to solve that issue. Moreover, find a way for various institutions to stay within their lanes and be held accountable; this would be a start toward social engineering.

One important starting point is to pry voters away from politicians, stop treating them as village tribal leaders, isolate those politicians within the larger community, and punish them to correct their behavior. Cut off business relations and other dealings with them; once they feel the pain in their pockets, maybe then a light bulb will turn on. Often, a controlled demolition is the best option.

As for calling Karachi to get what Lahore has, but Karachi’s political culture must first produce leadership capable of delivering those facilities. While Lahore might have a few outliers, it is still not a model that should be copied in Pakistan.

 

[Jango]

Idk why this thread always reminds me of this Sandhila guy and his tweets...poora Punjab his Europe jaisa bana dia hai. London, Paris, Amsterdam, Dubai, you name it. Exhibit 1 of a million:



The fetish of our people to label everything like Europe after erecting 10 palm trees and having some disco lights on the friggin highway needs to be studied.

 

[Feroze]

Idk why this thread always reminds me of this Sandhila guy and his tweets...poora Punjab his Europe jaisa bana dia hai. London, Paris, Amsterdam, Dubai, you name it. Exhibit 1 of a million:



The fetish of our people to label everything like Europe after erecting 10 palm trees and having some disco lights on the friggin highway needs to be studied.

You got to be kidding me. Who wants to be European?

Why not be proud of who you are? Be proud to be South Asian and Pakistani.

Why try to be something that you are not?

I would never want to be European. You mean being drunk with alcohol and wearing bikinis.

 

[Jango]

You got to be kidding me. Who wants to be European?

Why not be proud of who you are? Be proud to be South Asian and Pakistani.

Why try to be something that you are not?

I would never want to be European. You mean being drunk with alcohol and wearing bikinis.

Zehni pasti hai aur kuch nhn.

Actually it's a great proxy for the mentality of N itself. Roads, lights, some videos, that's all that consitutes development for them. Annay wa paisay lagayi jao 3 saal, then when it all ends...cry.

 

[VCheng]

The fetish of our people to label everything like Europe after erecting 10 palm trees and having some disco lights on the friggin highway needs to be studied.

It is very easy to explain: the poor people who are told something like this is "like Europe" have no idea that it is, or not, in realty, due to a lack of a frame of reference. Those who know what is it actually like in Europe or Dubai are ones who take part in spreading such lies to the gullible for their own purposes.

 

[Jango]

It is very easy to explain: the poor people who are told something like this is "like Europe" have no idea that it is, or not, in realty, due to a lack of a frame of reference. Those who know what is it actually like in Europe or Dubai are ones who take part in spreading such lies to the gullible for their own purposes.

Rightly said.

This Sandhila guy is a N tout in UK, who's sole job it seems is to take these pictures and clips of various places at night with the lights on and label them as Europe.

Kia naukri hai waisay...I need a job like that.

 

[PakFactor]

Rightly said.

This Sandhila guy is a N tout in UK, who's sole job it seems is to take these pictures and clips of various places at night with the lights on and label them as Europe.

Kia naukri hai waisay...I need a job like that.

You're going to need a heavy dose of bleach to clean your tongue after the interview.

 

[VCheng]

Rightly said.

This Sandhila guy is a N tout in UK, who's sole job it seems is to take these pictures and clips of various places at night with the lights on and label them as Europe.

Kia naukri hai waisay...I need a job like that.

Yes, and if that old trope fails, there is always the "at least we are better than India (or Bangladesh or some other country)" card to play, just so that the deprived remain suitably grateful that it is not even worse. For added flair, add some corroboration from someone with a gora chamri to say just how wonderful it is in Pakistan, and say that "see, even they agree!".

 

[Trailer23]

UK to replicate CM Maryam’s ‘Suthra Punjab’ model: BBC​

Yaar, please don't go overboard with this crap just 'cause you're a Fanboy of hers.

 

[Blain2]

If the political culture and the underlying political behavior of the voter base don't change, no amount of money thrown at the problem will solve it. As @VCheng has alluded, the rot starts from the head; you will have to find a way to solve that issue. Moreover, find a way for various institutions to stay within their lanes and be held accountable; this would be a start toward social engineering.

One important starting point is to pry voters away from politicians, stop treating them as village tribal leaders, isolate those politicians within the larger community, and punish them to correct their behavior. Cut off business relations and other dealings with them; once they feel the pain in their pockets, maybe then a light bulb will turn on. Often, a controlled demolition is the best option.

As for calling Karachi to get what Lahore has, but Karachi’s political culture must first produce leadership capable of delivering those facilities. While Lahore might have a few outliers, it is still not a model that should be copied in Pakistan.

I will take you back to the one fundamental disconnect in your post.

"Karachi's political culture producing leadership capable of delivering those facilities" is a dead-end. No matter how many such ppl the city produces and not matter how much development they may want, they don't hold the purse to the strings. Government of Sindh does.

Karachi does not vote PPP. Karachi votes, MQM, PTI, PPP, PML, JUI etc. etc. This means Karachi and Sindh will never align because their politics are different. Their interests will not converge (last 15 years have shown that).

Karachi has had multiple mayors who were Karachiites and wanted to do good for Karachi. What was the reason for their failure? Sind government's agenda was different.

This is not a minor issue. This is a massive problem with how the 18A works to the detriment of Karachiites. Karachi does not get its share of NFC awards directly, Sindh does.

The only way for this to change is if PPP feels fully vested in improving the lot of the city they run. This has not happened in the past 14+ years. They can say PTI, MQM, JI and all others who came before them have destroyed the city, that is fine but where is the responsibility of the incumbent?

 

[Blain2]

I thought Maryam Nawaz wants to make Punjab like Japan.

Whatever she is doing, it's better than what is happening in Sind/KPK. These are the facts on the ground and I am no supporter of PML. I just see the absolute mess Karachi is compared to Lahore and the difference is black and white.