UK to replicate CM Maryam’s ‘Suthra Punjab’ model: BBC

[VCheng]

No not like this.

The last time was when they outsourced it to a Turkish company in Lahore which was clearly a scam. This is different. They are actually focusing on their entire waste management ecosystem.

Not like this? Is this another famous "tabdeeli"? Are the mountains of trash along Bund Road gone for good?

Just how endlessly gullible are we?

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

Optional question (you don't have to answer if you choose not to): Do you live in Karachi? If not, have you ever lived there?

So the issue is not about "sophisticated" etc. It is about citizens getting their basic needs met. This does not happen in Karachi. It has not happened since the 1980s.

Karachi was an amazing place in the 50-70s. It has been the most educated, upwardly mobile population center (per-capita wise) in the country (and thus also the former capital) and it can be an economic juggernaut for one simple reason that no other place in Pakistan can replicate. This reason is because Karachi is Pakistan's melting pot. It has attracted entrepreneurs, businessmen, professionals for its entire existence since independence and that is something that needs to be invested in, and if done right, Karachi can deliver a greater return than even a place like Dubai.

It is the most cosmopolitan city of Pakistan with a very strong multi-ethnic representation. However, this multi-ethnic composition also gets in the way of the city's upliftment.

Now coming to your 3 points:
a) Karachiites are very educated and civilized: Yes to educated, however civilized and educated are two different things. Pakhtuns are also civilized yet we see unprecedented violence in KPK. Same goes for Karachi. When other vested interests get in the way, societies respond in different ways. Let's stick to the educated part.

b) Karachiites have no power and PPP has usurped all the rights: This is not an opinion. It is a fact. PPP runs the provincial government and also KMC. It has done so for over a decade. So if PPP have all the power, all the funding, then is it PTI, MQM, JUI's fault that the city is in such a deplorable state? All of the federal funding for Sind/Karachi goes to the PPP government in the province. Talk is cheap, the city needs money for the infrastructure uplift. Unless Federal Govt takes over, the only route for funding/development is PPP. They cannot dodge this responsibility.

c) Power in Karachi belongs to Karachiites (needs to be proven!): Only if Karachi is run by its own citizens who care about the city and not what the provincial government dictates. In the current situation, unless PPP feels 100% vested in the rehabilitation of the city (which it is not based on a decade + of governance), the citizen's opinions carry no weight. This is, as I have stated before, because the officials who hold the strings to power are not elected by them. These are the PPP's "provincial government" officials.
In essence, Karachi votes for what is essentially a "veneer" of local officials who are powerless because thanks to 18th Amendment, all the power rests with the provincial government. MQM, PTI, JUI/JI can have their man elected as the mayor, but it'd be as useless as carrying coals to Newcastle.

By way of comparison, lucky for Lahore that its administration is aligned to the provincial government and supported through and through. Thus you see uplift and development. Karachi is a sorry orphan prostituted for its economic potential and that is its only efficacy for the provincial government.

I will write a detailed reply to this, for now..

When Karachi was capital, all the sethiya banks were built on cheap loans from State of Pak

I found this very shameful as Urdu speaking, frankly

 

[Blain2]

I will write a detailed reply to this, for now..

When Karachi was capital, all the sethiya banks were built on cheap loans from State of Pak

I found this very shameful as Urdu speaking, frankly

When Pakistan was founded, a lot of such things happened. Not a lot was done by the book. The point is, that was then, here we are now. A lot to do. The city is in a state of rot and disrepair.

 

[PakFactor]

When Pakistan was founded, a lot of such things happened. Not a lot was done by the book. The point is, that was then, here we are now. A lot to do. The city is in a state of rot and disrepair.

The city is exactly where it needs to be; it's how the people choose to live.

 

[Blain2]

The city is exactly where it needs to be; it's how the people choose to live.

That goes for the entire world. There is inherent responsibility with the individual, no denying that, but not having manhole covers, no fire-fighting equipment, no electricity or waste disposal system isn't in the hands of the individuals/citizenry. They have been demanding the same for 3 decades now. Someone has to take ownership instead of passing the buck and saying "those before us were no better".

 

[VCheng]

There is inherent responsibility with the individual, no denying that, but not having manhole covers, no fire-fighting equipment, no electricity or waste disposal system isn't in the hands of the individuals/citizenry. They have been demanding the same for 3 decades now.

Demanding all those items is okay.

But what about stolen manhole covers, fire-fighting equipment that is not maintained or pilfered, garbage thrown outside of bins provided or anywhere it is wished, and stolen electricity?

Much of what leads to the eternal filth is directly due to the behavior of the people themselves.

 

[Goenitz]

Demanding all those items is okay.

But what about stolen manhole covers, fire-fighting equipment that is not maintained or pilfered, garbage thrown outside of bins provided or anywhere it is wished, and stolen electricity?

Much of what leads to the eternal filth is directly due to the behavior of the people themselves.

With less than 2% education budget, how can anybody teach people about hygiene, civic sense and recycling advantages. People are living in 1900, deprived of basic rights. Not to mention that the majority of that budget goes to construction (ghost schools) by MNAs.

These MNAs come to power on the Army's back and pay bribes to get there. Then in turn, they take bribes to induct teachers, firemen, police etc. That kills the merit, and that is why you hear firemen cannot control fire (no training besides a lack of equipment).

So, it is directly related to people in power. If parents cannot teach good manners to children, it is the parents' fault.

 

[VCheng]

With less than 2% education budget, how can anybody teach people about hygiene, civic sense and recycling advantages.

So what explains similar behaviors even amongst the educated people there?

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

I wish what you say could be done. But first, let's understand the basic political dynamics of Karachi and why they are not conducive to what you suggest.

We have to realize, politicians only care about doing the right thing when their vote bank is threatened. Karachi is not ruled by people elected by Karachiites. It is ruled by those elected from the interior of Sind. This is the biggest gift that the PPP got in the form of 18A thanks to Zardari.

No matter who the mayor is, no matter who the elected local city officers are, they cannot do anything because the funding/power rests with Bilawal House.

On top of that, Karachittes are not one united citizenry. Like the rest of Pakistan, ethnic, tribal and societal affiliations get in the way of their social cohesion and campaigning. These fault lines are well known to the PPP cadres running the place and they exploit them.
PTI and MQM were no better without direct federal government support.

Karachi is a victim of its own potential. PPP will not let it go because it is the ultimate cash cow. Yet, PPP won't deliver services to the masses because they happen to live in strongholds of MQM, PTI etc. and they don't get the vote from there. So, the only way for them to run the place and suck its resources dry is to keep the city literally limping and barely surviving on life support. Come election time, they know they will have the provincial government which trumps the city government. Thus the circus continues.

I have a few observations that I wish to present purely from a social and historical perspective, detached from emotion.

In my view, love, respect, and mutual understanding are more important than argumentation itself.

1. Historical background and the role of the elite

Within the migrant (Muhajir) community, there existed a segment that had been part of the elite or the administrative structure during the British period. The problem is that a class that itself grew under a colonial system, when it arrives in a new country, possesses neither an independent economic base nor genuine institutional experience. As a result, when such a group attempts to manage new land, new politics, and new economic opportunities, the risk–return balance often becomes distorted—high risk with limited capacity.

2. Educational and social condition of the majority

A large portion of the migrant population came from the middle or lower-middle classes, who even in the subcontinent were largely regarded as laborers or semi-literate. Expecting people from such backgrounds to suddenly become administratively, economically, or socially sophisticated is unrealistic. Social evolution takes time, and experiences of subjugation or dependency leave deep psychological and capacity-related effects on human beings.

3. Absence of investment, industry, and institution-building

The investors within the migrant community did not establish large-scale industries, educational institutions, or research centers in Pakistan. While there were a few individual business successes, overall institution-building remained weak. As a result, neither strong universities emerged, nor a culture of research developed, nor the industrial base that can alter the economic direction of a city or a nation.


4. Lack of technical expertise and collective vision

At a foundational level, the migrant community generally lacked strong technical expertise. The core issue was not that individuals were entirely unskilled; rather, they never cultivated a collective or long-term vision.

For instance, after Gul Plaza incident, some individuals began making grand political claims—going so far as to suggest that the public should establish its own private fire brigade. This line of thinking reflected a fundamental unfamiliarity with social order, state responsibility, and the principles of industrial development.

A civilized, educated, and visionary class invests not in private fire brigades, but in industry, research, and institution-building—because these are the foundations that lead a city or a nation toward progress.

5. State lending policies and their consequences

Around the world, states provide loans to industrialists, but Pakistan’s situation was different. The primary objective behind Pakistan’s creation was to generate employment and establish a strong economic structure—not to extend loans to capital holders who lacked the capacity to build industry.

When loans were granted to individuals who neither possessed an industrial vision nor the ability to build institutions, capital, which should have functioned like water to extinguish economic fires, became fire itself.

Thus, the flow of state resources that could have served as an engine of development instead turned counterproductive.




personal observation:

This post is based purely on a personal observation. When I used to speak with people from interior Sindh or Punjab at my bank, even the educated ones, most of them spoke in a way that made it seem as if a bandit or robber was standing in front of me. They talked as though I had stolen something from them.

Similarly, when you talk to an Urdu‑speaking person, their tone often feels as if they have been nobles for seven generations… whereas in reality, many of them turn out to have quite a different lineage altogether.

urdu speaking tell themselves as king of administration!



In my view, a particular segment of the Urdu‑speaking population has done to this country what even an enemy might not have been capable of.

Their dishonesty and opportunism have eaten away at the state’s moral structure like termites, distorted its business sense, and warped the nation’s economic compass so completely that direction, capability, and standards, all of it, collapsed into dust

 

[Goenitz]

So what explains similar behaviors even amongst the educated people there?

majority conforms to the surroundings. The behaviour change sometimes require punishment or negative reinforcement. If you observe, Ibrahimic faiths put a lot of emphasis on hell and heaven to correct behaviour. Humans seldom take cognitive input to do the right things. Mainly, it is emotional (love, hatred, fear, etc). For example, we know exercise is beneficial, but we only hit the gym when we have a physical problem.

At least, they know what is right. However, the uneducated don't even know what they don't know.

 

[VCheng]

At least, they know what is right.

And then they still do what is wrong, because it is easier. That is even worse than the uneducated who do not know any better. Piss Poor Pathetic!

 

[mythbuster]

Not like this? Is this another famous "tabdeeli"? Are the mountains of trash along Bund Road gone for good?

Just how endlessly gullible are we?

Too much skepticism is not healthy . Visit Lahore , you may get a pleasant surprise.

 

[VCheng]

Too much skepticism is not healthy . Visit Lahore , you may get a pleasant surprise.

I do. And I know. Vast areas are steaming heaps of garbage. Chronically. For years.

 

[Goenitz]

And then they still do what is wrong, because it is easier. That is even worse than the uneducated who do not know any better. Piss Poor Pathetic!

Yes. A reminder is needed now and then. People get complicit over time. So, an occasional reminder or training is required. For the poor, more resources are required so that it can become a habit, even if they don't understand. Then we have to look at the surroundings that influence your standard. If you are doing 20% more cleaning, then you become satisfied (DHA vs Layari).
In a nutshell, that is why we cannot produce any quality product but in a micro environment (like some football unit or PAC, etc)

 

[Blain2]

Demanding all those items is okay.

But what about stolen manhole covers, fire-fighting equipment that is not maintained or pilfered, garbage thrown outside of bins provided or anywhere it is wished, and stolen electricity?

Much of what leads to the eternal filth is directly due to the behavior of the people themselves.

We can have the proverbial chicken or the egg debate. You can always argue what the ppl do when they don't have the luxury of waste-disposal. Guess what? I am lobbing that garbage out the door. I have no other option. Change in behavior - since the activation of waste/refuse collection in Punjab, people are using that mechanism. Karachiites have no option but to throw garbage out of their homes. Nothing embarrasses me more than to see the piles of garbage all over Karachi...but nobody is disposing it properly. Not KMC, not anyone else.

Similarly, fire-fighting equipment not being maintained, pilfered is whose responsibility? Not the citizens', rather the organizations that are responsible for that work.

I am highlighting that lack of basic civic services leads to off-putting behavior by the masses. When basic services are available, you will have some exceptions abusing the system, but most will adhere to using the services offered as we see in Lahore etc.