JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Ali_Baba]

Still from PAF video. Showing all the goodies. advance High off-boresight missiles, very long range BVRs, high supersonic ASBMs. Lethal package.


View attachment 178050

I had hoped at this point, that PAC had integrated more Turkish based weapons onto the JF17 by now. Only the underbelly pod has been done so far it seems.

 

[Yasser76]

I had hoped at this point, that PAC had integrated more Turkish based weapons onto the JF17 by now. Only the underbelly pod has been done so far it seems.

Could be that Turkish stuff simply not as good as Chinese anymore?

Maybe we did integration just for Azeris!?

 

[Ali_Baba]

Could be that Turkish stuff simply not as good as Chinese anymore?

Maybe we did integration just for Azeris!?

If we did some "stuff" for the Azeris, I can't see why PAC would not want to advertise those weapons to highlight flexibility of the platform to adopt new weapons on a bespoke basis. Turkieye would benefit by picking up sales too with new clients, etc. It is more possible that the new "weapons integration facility" at Kamra has not been able to achieve anything other than the turkish pod todate other than "potentially" home grown ALCM's like Taimoor, etc.

 

[AeronautIR]

If we did some "stuff" for the Azeris, I can't see why PAC would not want to advertise those weapons to highlight flexibility of the platform to adopt new weapons on a bespoke basis. Turkieye would benefit by picking up sales too with new clients, etc. It is more possible that the new "weapons integration facility" at Kamra has not been able to achieve anything other than the turkish pod todate other than "potentially" home grown ALCM's like Taimoor, etc.

I think Azerbaijan requested for Turkish weapons integration. Otherwise, JF-17 has the whole package of indigenous and Chinese armament.

 

[Ali_Baba]

I think Azerbaijan requested for Turkish weapons integration. Otherwise, JF-17 has the whole package of indigenous and Chinese armament.

Any reason why PAC would not want to advertise new weapons integrations that other clients can potentially also buy from Türkiye ?

 

[Yasser76]

Any reason why PAC would not want to advertise new weapons integrations that other clients can potentially also buy from Türkiye ?

Good point, but it may be the chinese insist on Chinese weapons being sold with it?

Also, much of the sales and marketing should be done by the Turks themsleves, or maybe even full integrations have not been completed yet?

Essentially could be due to a load of reasons I guess....

 

[Michael]

Any reason why PAC would not want to advertise new weapons integrations that other clients can potentially also buy from Türkiye ?

Weapon integration in fighter jets can be categorized into two levels: "usable" and "easy to use."

The JF-17 series fighter jet incorporated numerous NATO standards from its initial development. Turkey's weapon systems also utilize NATO standards. Theoretically, any NATO weapon could be relatively easily adapted to the "usable" standard on the JF-17 series fighter jets, provided both sides were willing.

However, they could never achieve the "easy to use" standard.

Azerbaijan's choice to equip its JF-17 fighter jets with some Turkish weapons was a result of political forces, not technological ones. The performance of these Turkish weapons on the JF-17 was embarrassing for both sides, but political forces compelled Azerbaijan to do so.

This is why they are not suitable for widespread public display.

=====================================================

The four levels of weapon integration:

Level 1: Mechanical/Structural Interface
Level 2: Basic Electrical and Launch Control
Level 3: Fire Control/Data Link/Midcourse Guidance Interface
Level 4: Algorithm, Guidance Logic, Source Code

The JF-17, using Turkish weapons, can only reach a maximum level of 3.5, meaning a "black box interface" for Fire Control/Data Link/Midcourse Guidance Interface.

Level 4 is only effective for its own natively developed weapons.

 

[AeronautIR]

Any reason why PAC would not want to advertise new weapons integrations that other clients can potentially also buy from Türkiye ?

There is no Turkish weapon that is new for Thunder because the package is already complete. Maybe I am not getting your point.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Weapon integration in fighter jets can be categorized into two levels: "usable" and "easy to use."

The JF-17 series fighter jet incorporated numerous NATO standards from its initial development. Turkey's weapon systems also utilize NATO standards. Theoretically, any NATO weapon could be relatively easily adapted to the "usable" standard on the JF-17 series fighter jets, provided both sides were willing.

However, they could never achieve the "easy to use" standard.

Azerbaijan's choice to equip its JF-17 fighter jets with some Turkish weapons was a result of political forces, not technological ones. The performance of these Turkish weapons on the JF-17 was embarrassing for both sides, but political forces compelled Azerbaijan to do so.

This is why they are not suitable for widespread public display.

=====================================================

The four levels of weapon integration:

Level 1: Mechanical/Structural Interface
Level 2: Basic Electrical and Launch Control
Level 3: Fire Control/Data Link/Midcourse Guidance Interface
Level 4: Algorithm, Guidance Logic, Source Code

The JF-17, using Turkish weapons, can only reach a maximum level of 3.5, meaning a "black box interface" for Fire Control/Data Link/Midcourse Guidance Interface.

Level 4 is only effective for its own natively developed weapons.

The unknown at this point is how much access to the source code does Pakistan have currently. Pakistan setup the following lab, which to logically suggests it "could" have very high degree of access or full access to the source code of the mission computers which address Level 4 of your suggestion ?

Pakistan’s PAC Inaugurates JF-17 Integration Facility - Quwa

On 27 December 2019, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) inaugurated a new integration facility for installing, testing and qualifying electronics and munitions to the JF-17 domestically.

quwa.org

The level of access is unknown, even for a "joint project" so it is difficult to ascertain the degree to which Pakistan can modify the platform. ie are the restrictions "legal" and contractual with full source code access, or is access to the code itself limited.

 

[Ali_Baba]

There is no Turkish weapon that is new for Thunder because the package is already complete. Maybe I am not getting your point.

The question is what new(Turkish) weapons were integrated into the JF17C for Azerbaijan, and if any were integrated, why are they not being shown ?

 

[Michael]

The unknown at this point is how much access to the source code does Pakistan have currently. Pakistan setup the following lab, which to logically suggests it "could" have very high degree of access or full access to the source code of the mission computers which address Level 4 of your suggestion ?

Pakistan’s PAC Inaugurates JF-17 Integration Facility - Quwa

On 27 December 2019, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) inaugurated a new integration facility for installing, testing and qualifying electronics and munitions to the JF-17 domestically.

quwa.org

The level of access is unknown, even for a "joint project" so it is difficult to ascertain the degree to which Pakistan can modify the platform. ie are the restrictions "legal" and contractual with full source code access, or is access to the code itself limited.

First, we need to clarify one point.

The JF-17 project, a Sino-Pakistani cooperation, refers to the fighter jet itself. It does not include subsystems.

Specifically, the source code of the JF-17's flight control system may fall within the scope of the cooperation framework between the two sides, or it may be a separate matter. I am not clear on the specifics.

However, it is certain that the AESA radar of the JF-17B3 fighter jet is definitely not within this cooperation framework.

Normally, CETC is only the radar provider for this project. Unless there is a separate cooperation agreement between Pakistan and CETC, Pakistan certainly cannot access the radar's underlying source code.

Leaving aside the Sino-Pakistani cooperation issue, even if Pakistan fully possessed all the source code of the JF-17 fighter jet, including the radar and all other subsystems, the JF-17B3 fighter jet would not be able to enable Turkish missiles to reach level 4.

This source code is top-level national military security classified information and will not be disclosed to anyone. In simple terms, Pakistan will not release the fighter jet's source code to Turkey, and Turkey will not release the weapon's source code to Pakistan. At most, both parties can provide a "black box interface".

 

[Oscar]

First, we need to clarify one point.

The JF-17 project, a Sino-Pakistani cooperation, refers to the fighter jet itself. It does not include subsystems.

Specifically, the source code of the JF-17's flight control system may fall within the scope of the cooperation framework between the two sides, or it may be a separate matter. I am not clear on the specifics.

However, it is certain that the AESA radar of the JF-17B3 fighter jet is definitely not within this cooperation framework.

Normally, CETC is only the radar provider for this project. Unless there is a separate cooperation agreement between Pakistan and CETC, Pakistan certainly cannot access the radar's underlying source code.

Leaving aside the Sino-Pakistani cooperation issue, even if Pakistan fully possessed all the source code of the JF-17 fighter jet, including the radar and all other subsystems, the JF-17B3 fighter jet would not be able to enable Turkish missiles to reach level 4.

This source code is top-level national military security classified information and will not be disclosed to anyone. In simple terms, Pakistan will not release the fighter jet's source code to Turkey, and Turkey will not release the weapon's source code to Pakistan. At most, both parties can provide a "black box interface".

Considering Pakistan had to fight tooth and nail for basic documentation created by CAC to get the ability to integrate third party systems such as radios, EW and health monitoring systems - it does now have access to the majority of the aircraft’s mission computer and bus architecture source.

However, your assertion that the source code is needed for optimal weapons performance is wrong.

Modern integration frameworks are designed specifically to avoid needing access to a weapon’s or aircraft’s proprietary software.

A weapon’s internal algorithms (like guidance or fuzing logic) operate autonomously once the correct data is provided via these interfaces. As long as the aircraft feeds accurate target coordinates, attitude, and timing signals, the missile performs as designed.

The Indian Su-30MKI fires Israeli and French weapons, and Eurofighter Typhoon loads Israeli decoys and none of these required full software source code but relied on ICDs and modular integration software.

Easy to use and useable are not reliant on source code - they are related to seamless mission computer integration, pilot interface, accurate threat symbology, and smooth datalink updates and not necessarily algorithm-level integration.

The limiting factor is often documentation and interface access, not inaccessible source code. If the weapon manufacturer supplies a full Interface Control Document, you can integrate effectively even with a closed “black box.” Claiming it was "embarrassing" because Level 4 access wasn’t granted ignores that nearly all mixed-origin fighter integrations (including Western ones) operate effectively at Level 3 or 3.5. If Azerbaijan has not been able to integrate weapons yet it can be due to limited cooperation from OEM, inconsistent software documentation, or rushed integration timelines.

 

[KingQamaR]

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[AeronautIR]

The question is what new(Turkish) weapons were integrated into the JF17C for Azerbaijan, and if any were integrated, why are they not being shown ?

Air to air missiles like Gokdogan and Bozdogan mainly. The Chinese missiles have longer ranges than them. If a customer wants, other weapons can be integrated but the weapon package of Thunder is primarily Chinese.

 

[Cipher212]

Still from PAF video. Showing all the goodies. advance High off-boresight missiles, very long range BVRs, high supersonic ASBMs. Lethal package.


View attachment 178050

There's something very AI generated about this livery. Especially those fuel tanks. Ugly as hell.

I really hope we start selling these in good numbers.