Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[Ali_Baba]

You say this, but ALOT of PAF rd93 support comes from ukraine, now obviously, with the war things have gotten far more difficult. Same story for all russian kit in Pakistan, im sure India is also feeling the stretch here.

The Chinese engine is in final stages of trials anyway, maybe theyre even complete by now, i never asked again, but i dont think the RD93 will stay for much longer. Its been a very difficult platform to sustain during all of this conflict.

Given that the engine has a lifespan of just 2000hrs, each JF17 will need to re-engined once during its lifespan, so it makes sense to use up all the lifespan of the engine and then upgrade them to a newer WS-21 at a minimum once those hours expire(or reduce their use to select airframes and reuse those spare engines as a spare parts source).

The JF17 Block 1/2 has an airframe lifespan of 4,000 hrs.

a) Does the JF17C have more than 4,000 hrs rated lifespan from the outset?
b) Can a MLU programme refresh the airframe enough to expand the lifespan of the airframe?

 

[Ak01]

Is Chinese engine so close in design that it can replace RD?

Yes, it was designed to effectively be a variant of. Its an improvement on the older soviet tech, working around the space and performance constraints of the original

My understanding is that a fighter is built around an engine and a change of engine would require a complete redesign.
This is not only due to size but also various controls and interfaces that may not fit into a fighter that easily. You are an experienced hand and would know all this in any case.

Yes, but its really meant to be an identical swap in replacement !

The possibility of waiting it out till FGFA is finalised, also seems quite plausible. In the meanwhile the PAC capacity can keep working to replace the older versions of JF or to meet export commitments as and when deals are signed.

 

[diaspora]

Hi,

There was no reason to show the satelite imagery and how the PAF neutered the opponent---.

Information is the issue---. Public does not need to know all the tactical details of the operation---.

It saw that there were no 5 times larger enemy aircraft in the air---and that is all it needed to see.

The nations who needed to know what happened would have gotten to know how it happened in due time---.

At the end of the day---the truth would have come afloat---.

I wish that the PAF had shot down 20-30 aircraft and acted stupid and blamed it on pilot error or sent wrong message to the piltos kind of excuse and hidden their tactical skills.

And rather than bragging about the 200 KM rage of the PL15---should have stuck to the 150KM range and made the enemy look even worse---and kep their mouths shut about the true capabilities of their weaponry---.

But---saldy the PAF could not contain itself and had to strut ad prance around---. So sad---.

Maybe the kill was at 150 but PAF is inflating the number to 200 as a psyop.

Nobody knows.

I would trust the PAF with whatever it is they are doing. They're the professionals.

 

[Falcon26]

Maybe the kill was at 150 but PAF is inflating the number to 200 as a psyop.

Nobody knows.

I would trust the PAF with whatever it is they are doing. They're the professionals.

It was actually Indian military sources that told Reuters that the kill was much longer than claimed.

 

[Ak01]

Given that the engine has a lifespan of just 2000hrs, each JF17 will need to re-engined once during its lifespan, so it makes sense to use up all the lifespan of the engine and then upgrade them to a newer WS-21 at a minimum once those hours expire(or reduce their use to select airframes and reuse those spare engines as a spare parts source).

The JF17 Block 1/2 has an airframe lifespan of 4,000 hrs.

a) Does the JF17C have more than 4,000 hrs rated lifespan from the outset?
b) Can a MLU programme refresh the airframe enough to expand the lifespan of the airframe?

There must have been some structural changes between B1 and subsequent ones as B1's are not earmarked for MLU and thus will be retired( cue my ramblings of lifecycle cost that nobody was interested in)- im guessing the first batch of JF-17s will be retired in the 2030's. Leaves the PAF with a 50 aircraft gap to plan for.

I guess with the MLU, its more of a question of what they do. Is it just an avionics refresher or SLEP? It might not always be economically viable to SLEP these. Though, this assumes theres been no improvement in manufacturing processes and the structures between blocks.



I guess you could pull up some pics etc and compare build quality

 

[RAMPAGE]

There must have been some structural changes between B1 and subsequent ones as B1's are not earmarked for MLU and thus will be retired( cue my ramblings of lifecycle cost that nobody was interested in)- im guessing the first batch of JF-17s will be retired in the 2030's. Leaves the PAF with a 50 aircraft gap to plan for.

I guess with the MLU, its more of a question of what they do. Is it just an avionics refresher or SLEP? It might not always be economically viable to SLEP these. Though, this assumes theres been no improvement in manufacturing processes and the structures between blocks.

View attachment 178850

I guess you could pull up some pics etc and compare build quality

How can pictures shed light on SLEP viability?

 

[MastanKhan]

I was referring to some mudslinging here a month back on this topic of imagery. Your opinion is totally opposite to them. They called PAF a liar and you are calling PAF vain. I personally stick to debates about weapons/tactics and leave the policymaking to those who have the complete visibility at grand strategic level.

Hi,

The enemy pokes and insults---so the opponent can blurt out its operational capabilities.

The enemy hides its losses so that its citizens don't get disheartened---.

These things have been done for 100's of years---.

 

[Oscar]

There must have been some structural changes between B1 and subsequent ones as B1's are not earmarked for MLU and thus will be retired( cue my ramblings of lifecycle cost that nobody was interested in)- im guessing the first batch of JF-17s will be retired in the 2030's. Leaves the PAF with a 50 aircraft gap to plan for.

I guess with the MLU, its more of a question of what they do. Is it just an avionics refresher or SLEP? It might not always be economically viable to SLEP these. Though, this assumes theres been no improvement in manufacturing processes and the structures between blocks.

View attachment 178850

I guess you could pull up some pics etc and compare build quality

You need to see initial airshows and pilots having to slam the hud module back to its position to get an idea of build inconsistency

 

[AeronautIR]

Hi,

The enemy pokes and insults---so the opponent can blurt out its operational capabilities.

The enemy hides its losses so that its citizens don't get disheartened---.

These things have been done for 100's of years---.

Ironically, none of those members were enemy. They are Pakistanis who believe PAF should give evidence about each and every claim, whether Air to Air kills or ground targets struck in India. According to them, Pakistan is on weak wicket against India with the strategy you are proposing.

 

[Hussain]

I am actually astonished by your statement. The JF-17 project's main aim was to replace all 3rd gen fighters of PAF like F-7, Mirage and A-5. In total, there were 18 squadrons of these aircraft in 2010. Now, only 3 F-7PG and 3 upgraded Mirage squadrons left in PAF.

If you can answer please do, if it something that is classified then please ignore.

With all these aircrafts being retired, is there a program that is working on turning them into unmanned aircrafts / drones?

 

[Pogic]

not very cost effective.

Ukraine can do this because they're being bankrolled.

You're probably talking between 8-10,000/ flight hour in costs for the F7PG.

Plus lets say something like 100-200k/PL-5.

Youve got an unsustainable cost per intercept.

Particularly as those airframes become more and more unflyable.

Better solution is ground launching them like the houthis and indians do.

What about instead of using PL-5s, you equip them with something similar to APKWS II? All of sudden your cost per intercept is cut by at least 70-80%.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Paf has a large stockpile of trained pilots and parts for both mirage and f-7 fleets to keep them operational. If needed they can be kept in service for another decade but both platforms will likely be retired from combat roles pre 2030. Mirages are still valuble assets for hauling a lot of even mordern munitions as seen with meanwhile f-7s are actually not that old as the pg models currently in service were only delivered in early 2000s but despite wvr limitations they are still very useful for LIFT and backline air defence roles. It is not entirely feasible for PAF to fully replace nearly 5 squadrons of legacy aircaft with new build B3 in a short timeframe on simply a cost basis. And the fact is the jf-17 production line is being primarily catered to export customers first. Once these orders further materialise i believe PAC will slowly ramp up production further to meet these needs as currently there is not enough consistent demand/capital. We also dont know what pfx alpha contains and if the paf is waiting for that to develop further before investing further. Another big reason is paf may be looking to invest into more f-16,j10 and j35 to replace the fleet partially rather than go all in on more jft

How many active Mirage III/5s are still serving with the PAF.

You mentioned it's 5 squadrons. How many would be in each squadron?

 

[Hussain]

Ironically, none of those members were enemy. They are Pakistanis who believe PAF should give evidence about each and every claim, whether Air to Air kills or ground targets struck in India. According to them, Pakistan is on weak wicket against India with the strategy you are proposing.

AHQ doesn't care about them, neither should you.
Ignore and move on, you are bigger than that...

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

Given that the engine has a lifespan of just 2000hrs, each JF17 will need to re-engined once during its lifespan, so it makes sense to use up all the lifespan of the engine and then upgrade them to a newer WS-21 at a minimum once those hours expire(or reduce their use to select airframes and reuse those spare engines as a spare parts source).

The JF17 Block 1/2 has an airframe lifespan of 4,000 hrs.

a) Does the JF17C have more than 4,000 hrs rated lifespan from the outset?
b) Can a MLU programme refresh the airframe enough to expand the lifespan of the airframe?

I dont agree that any mechanical machine, can have a fixed lifespan!

engine has a limited span, which, when translated into numbers, becomes a very specific number.

now, this specific number when 'averaged' on historical basis becomes a 'lifespan'(totally disregards new unknown condition, like bird strikes or requirement to fight at different altitudes!)

good thing is, 'unknowns' can actually work in ones favor too!


as I understand, but, Im not an engineer, I could be wrong!

 

[Oscar]

Ironically, none of those members were enemy. They are Pakistanis who believe PAF should give evidence about each and every claim, whether Air to Air kills or ground targets struck in India. According to them, Pakistan is on weak wicket against India with the strategy you are proposing.

It's a mixed plate of information warfare and "looking bigger than you are".
A great example is Israel - yes the IDF-AF has had a pretty spectacular record but at the same time many of their claims especially with overwhelming "wins" have been brought into question because of immediate "flooding" of media channels with their specific narrative. That narrative also plays into how their foes start calculating because despite internal assessments you are now considering if your internal reports are accurate or not. After all, Pakistan was claiming a victory in 71 on the eastern front until the surrender and there are actual records of some people actually going into shock including cardiac arrest hearing of the opposite.

The same way, we saw an entire media narrative lead to an invasion of Iraq and the breaking of a media narrative for Israel to expose what they were actually doing in Gaza to a western population that normally has never questioned them.

Trump admin is being questioned on the effectiveness of the B-2 strikes while Iran was being laughed at CGI F-35s shot down.

So what is important is if a claim is made - is that it is verified especially if you are doing it as sort of an official military brief. If you claimed to have hit the S-400 then you better have done your BDA prior to making it. If you are certain you did hit it but cannot claim it - then create a very strong narrative or tone it down to "they were forced to withdraw".

It can be completely separate from actual reality - in reality you could shoot down 9 jets, hit 40 on the ground - and if you can only show 5 images for both escalation management and opsec reasons then you do just that. The enemy will know what happened to them, the active professional world will believe your narrative over theirs any day and you still have cards to throw at them including being able to show at the negotiation table if they start clamoring again for some conflict. This is especially true when your enemy values IMAGE ABOVE ALL ELSE.

After all, there was more happening than just in the air on the 27th of Feb than just in the air - but if you do start presenting "proofs" of that day then you also expose gaps they had.