Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

[RedRock]

PAF needs to up its game massively!! Munir, oh munir. You are in trumps good books but know one knows for how long. Make the most of it dammit. Get the zulus in big numbers for terrorist ops. We have many a reason for them now. So many attacks its clearly sell able. Get permission for Atak engines. Get radars or get upgrades for our tracked howitzers etc. Start getting western equipment that they feel is better than anything the chinese or turks have. You have a year or so. Hell, trump could change his mind immediately and munir will be shut out. He has to move quick and make the most of it and not squander this opportunity like Musharraf.

For the love of God learn how to deal with Americans, its not rocket science. Get the V upgrades and latest Amraams and shut up about your capabilites. Get back to complete silence about what we have, what we acheived and what we are getting. Enough!!

Any new skirmish should either be destroying everything india has in the air and taking over kashmir or do nothing and just shoot down their missiles. It should not be a half arsed reply. As someone already pointed out, we cannot afford to let the indians know about our capabilities allowing them to plan, upgrade and purchase accordingly. Since we can not do the same as we are not economically as strong as them.

Next skirmish should lead to what azerbaijan did. No more effing around. Get the job done. Now is your chance. For the love of God get all the western equipment and spares you need asap because this friendship will not last and neither will this peace. The indians are preparing and they are going to do something during trumps time! So munir needs to up his game big time!!

 

[Cipher212]

That is one of my biggest concerns post May battle but I have also heard counter arguments. After 2019, over a decade long BVR superiority secret was out. AMRAAMs broke their cover and now Indians threw their vast money reserves at the problem to buy Rafales for the next fight. We had to put hard cash into fast replacing our F-16s as frontline fighters with a brand new aircraft and missiles. Now after just six years Indians again found out the hard way and are now throwing even more money at the problem. We can't replace/upgrade our systems ever few years, we don't have that kind of money. But the counter argument is that Indians may already know when their aircraft went down(or atleast PAF won't stay stagnant believing that Indians can't learn and will go back to the drawing board anyway) what they are facing and keeping quiet won't hide the secret so why not brag

There is always a drawback of showing your cards in what have been meaningless skirmishes with no real objectives. Still, in hindsight, it was a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation.

Can't just allow the Indian Air Force to come and bomb our territory unchallenged either, but in the long run we'll regret showing India it's shortcomings because they'll always have more money to fix their problems.

 

[Bratva]

Not the first time in PAF or overall PakMil history btw. But then Turkey did that as well for the coup situation - That being said before we go on the idea of the white paper and the "right to disagree"...
If this happened in the USAF for e.g. especially if this "white paper" was leaked to the press as it was but they’re usually framed as insubordination (toward a superior officer) or conduct prejudicial to discipline, not as a “coup”-style detention.

Heck, here is what would happen there -
Article 92 (Failure to obey order or regulation): Violating AFI directives requiring clearance before public release and that includes even privately prepared information about Air Force matters "must be reviewed for clearance" before public release.
Then Article 134 (General article): Conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline.
FBI and Air Force Office of Special Investigations (OSI) would investigate the leak
The officer would likely be suspended from duties, have security clearance revoked, and potentially face pretrial restriction or confinement depending on severity.

So regardless of the legitimacy of grievances, leaking an internal document to the press violates military regulations whether it was PAF or USAF.

Just so we are clear while talking to injustice.

I'll reply in detail in another thread but to quickly point out, US armed forces in general and USAF has whistleblower protection and reporting in place to cater to these scenarios, dont they? That's why "if" any "white paper" situation arises in USAF, they would claim themselves to be a whistleblower and report it to Inspector General or Senate/Congress Intelligence committee. And those sensitive claims then found their way to press ultimately. WaPO and NYT usually are the main newspaper who report such things. I hope you are following about whats happening with DNI whistleblower fiasco

DNI whistleblower complaint includes details about intercept of call between foreign nationals discussing person close to Trump, sources say

A whistleblower complaint includes highly-classified details about a National Security Agency intercept of a call between two foreign nationals who discussed a person close to President Trump, two sources said.

www.cbsnews.com

USAF killing innocents in Syria

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/13/us/us-airstrikes-civilian-deaths.html

The system is extremely effective in theory and when democrat's are in Government. But when Sidu Sahab equivalents becomes secretary of War, things went sideways too there in pentagon.

Anyways, an example of "whitepaper" equivalent claim submitted by USAF member to congress

USAF whistleblower: US military at risk in Niger

Service member stationed there says they are being essentially 'held hostage' while US diplomatic efforts founder

responsiblestatecraft.org

 

[Oscar]

I'll reply in detail in another thread but to quickly point out, US armed forces in general and USAF has whistleblower protection and reporting in place to cater to these scenarios, dont they? That's why "if" any "white paper" situation arises in USAF, they would claim themselves to be a whistleblower and report it to Inspector General or Senate/Congress Intelligence committee. And those sensitive claims then found their way to press ultimately. WaPO and NYT usually are the main newspaper who report such things. I hope you are following about whats happening with DNI whistleblower fiasco

DNI whistleblower complaint includes details about intercept of call between foreign nationals discussing person close to Trump, sources say

A whistleblower complaint includes highly-classified details about a National Security Agency intercept of a call between two foreign nationals who discussed a person close to President Trump, two sources said.

www.cbsnews.com

USAF killing innocents in Syria

View attachment 179101

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/13/us/us-airstrikes-civilian-deaths.html

The system is extremely effective in theory and when democrat's are in Government. But when Sidu Sahab equivalents becomes secretary of War, things went sideways too there in pentagon.

Anyways, an example of "whitepaper" equivalent claim submitted by USAF member to congress

View attachment 179097

USAF whistleblower: US military at risk in Niger

Service member stationed there says they are being essentially 'held hostage' while US diplomatic efforts founder

responsiblestatecraft.org

Yes, there are mechanisms in place for whistleblowers. But for that you have to have a civilian authority to report to which is the fundamental difference.

Technically Pakistan never has had whistleblower laws ever so from a pure “word of text” perspective they are in violation.

However, even if there was such a law - for e.g Under 10 U.S.C. § 1034, the Military Whistleblower Protection Act provides protection only for disclosures made to specifically authorized recipients who are part of legislative bodies - NOT THE PRESS.

Daniel Hale, a former Air Force intelligence analyst, pled guilty to violating the Espionage Act for disclosing classified information about drone strikes to a journalist and received a 45-month sentence. The court refused to consider whether his disclosures revealed government misconduct or served the public interest.

Little policy or guidance applies directly to public whistleblowing of misconduct.

So in the eyes of the law - as such it is in Pakistan - they are guilty of violating it.

Even then, it was a smarter move for Saeed to have perhaps involved a parliamentary member or someone else instead of handing the paper over with the names and so on so forth to a member of the press already known to be aligned with a Party undergoing political prosecution.

As the parrot said to the Sardarji after he was kicked out of the plane for teasing the air hostess…

اڈنا آندا ای؟ نہیں ناں؟ فیر پنگا کیوں لینا ایں؟

 

[MastanKhan]

That is one of my biggest concerns post May battle but I have also heard counter arguments. After 2019, over a decade long BVR superiority secret was out. AMRAAMs broke their cover and now Indians threw their vast money reserves at the problem to buy Rafales for the next fight. We had to put hard cash into fast replacing our F-16s as frontline fighters with a brand new aircraft and missiles. Now after just six years Indians again found out the hard way and are now throwing even more money at the problem. We can't replace/upgrade our systems ever few years, we don't have that kind of money. But the counter argument is that Indians may already know when their aircraft went down(or atleast PAF won't stay stagnant believing that Indians can't learn and will go back to the drawing board anyway) what they are facing and keeping quiet won't hide the secret so why not brag

Hi,

"The indians knowing them" is a far different thing than the PAF confirming it---.

Just because they knew about it---did not put any real pressure on them from the public.

But being lambasted and humiliated all the time by the PAF and their retd professionals---there is a major major push from the public to counter the issue.

Then on top of that---the way that the PAF has humiliated and degraded the western equipment---it has forced the western eq manufacturers to give their 110% to counter---.

There are un-official reports that very high ranking retd western air force Generals have offered their services to the IAF to repare them to counter PAF.

 

[studsmart]

Pakistan have between 30 and 50 serviceable mirage 3. Good 30 to 34 of them are rose 1 or may be less. These are the only onevthat can get aesa plus other updates. Rose 2/3 Mirage 5 nose cone cannot get a radar.

 

[Oscar]

Pakistan have between 30 and 50 serviceable mirage 3. Good 30 to 34 of them are rose 1 or may be less. These are the only onevthat can get aesa plus other updates. Rose 2/3 Mirage 5 nose cone cannot get a radar.

Nothing is getting a AESA radar unless Leonardo is sending them as Fitrana.
Just pointless "I need attention" posts on X.
The Mirages are at the end of their lives, they have been tested with some SD-10s on the centerline but even that is in case they go on their own. Eventually there will be 20 odd serviceable airframe for purely 2nd line or strategic work.

 

[Yasser76]

100% This. Spot on

It's a mixed plate of information warfare and "looking bigger than you are".
A great example is Israel - yes the IDF-AF has had a pretty spectacular record but at the same time many of their claims especially with overwhelming "wins" have been brought into question because of immediate "flooding" of media channels with their specific narrative. That narrative also plays into how their foes start calculating because despite internal assessments you are now considering if your internal reports are accurate or not. After all, Pakistan was claiming a victory in 71 on the eastern front until the surrender and there are actual records of some people actually going into shock including cardiac arrest hearing of the opposite.

The same way, we saw an entire media narrative lead to an invasion of Iraq and the breaking of a media narrative for Israel to expose what they were actually doing in Gaza to a western population that normally has never questioned them.

Trump admin is being questioned on the effectiveness of the B-2 strikes while Iran was being laughed at CGI F-35s shot down.

So what is important is if a claim is made - is that it is verified especially if you are doing it as sort of an official military brief. If you claimed to have hit the S-400 then you better have done your BDA prior to making it. If you are certain you did hit it but cannot claim it - then create a very strong narrative or tone it down to "they were forced to withdraw".

It can be completely separate from actual reality - in reality you could shoot down 9 jets, hit 40 on the ground - and if you can only show 5 images for both escalation management and opsec reasons then you do just that. The enemy will know what happened to them, the active professional world will believe your narrative over theirs any day and you still have cards to throw at them including being able to show at the negotiation table if they start clamoring again for some conflict. This is especially true when your enemy values IMAGE ABOVE ALL ELSE.

After all, there was more happening than just in the air on the 27th of Feb than just in the air - but if you do start presenting "proofs" of that day then you also expose gaps they had.

 

[ghazi52]

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[Pakistan Space Agency]

... If people raise geniune concerns , you cant dismiss them non chalantly just because you were conditioned to follow orders and never question your superiors.

They should be dismissed and tried. They must be in the wrong military if anyone thinks otherwise.

 

[Hussain]

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[Yatağan]

Not economically feasible in my opinion. We are already working on all types of drones including loyal wingman.

You're right about the economics—honestly, these aircraft probably should have been retired years ago. France has already moved on from their Mirages and China retired their J-6 and J-7 fleets a while back. But here's the thing: China didn't just scrap them. They've been quietly converting them into drone swarms. And these aren't just basic target drones—they're actually pretty smart, networked into their broader combat systems. So while we're investing in next-gen loyal wingmen, maybe there's still a window to extract real value from these older airframes by following China's lead—turning mass into something tactically useful.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[AeronautIR]

You're right about the economics—honestly, these aircraft probably should have been retired years ago. France has already moved on from their Mirages and China retired their J-6 and J-7 fleets a while back. But here's the thing: China didn't just scrap them. They've been quietly converting them into drone swarms. And these aren't just basic target drones—they're actually pretty smart, networked into their broader combat systems. So while we're investing in next-gen loyal wingmen, maybe there's still a window to extract real value from these older airframes by following China's lead—turning mass into something tactically useful.

I don't know the details about this Chinese project but they had around 1000 of these aircraft. PAF has just 50. I don't think it is worth it.

 

[ghazi52]

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