HAL LCA Tejas: Updates, News & Discussions

[Ak01]

Is that how our neighbors do !

took you 2 weeks and a leak to accept a loss...dont throw stones in glass houses.

 

[Michael]

Small correction - ( and I am old enough to remember this ) - China was meant to also purchase an equal number of FC1 as Pakistan was as part of the original business case, but they backed out of it and then decided to develop the J10 as it then decided it wanted a bigger platform. It was too late for Pakistan to also walk away due to sanctions so PAF had to "suck it up" the PLAAF walking away as they had no choice on the matter.

You are correct, but that all was initially at a time, the J-10 was far from safe ... but with it being in the end the more capable fighter and also fitting much better the PLAAF's needs, it decided in the end against it.

I remember there were also briefly claims, at least a few would be purchased as an aggressor squadron but hey, nowadays even the J-10 is "too small" and light for the PLAAF.

There are countless rumors circulating online about this issue. Neither side's official agencies have ever formally addressed the details...

This is my personal analysis, for reference only:

In the 1980s, China proposed the "Super 7 Project." The US was involved, and China also invited Pakistan to participate. At the time, China genuinely wanted to develop a new fighter jet for itself. However, after the Tiananmen Square incident, the project was forced to terminate.

In the early 1990s, the Soviet Union collapsed. China negotiated with Russia to import the RD-33 engine. The CAC restarted the "Super 7 Project" and again invited Pakistan to join. The two sides signed an MOU (not a formal contract). China and Pakistan began discussing and negotiating the technical details of the fighter jet.

However, the international landscape changed dramatically in the 1990s.

Pakistan acquired F-16 fighter jets. China acquired Su-27 fighter jets. Simultaneously, China's J-10 fighter jet project made significant progress...

These changes fundamentally altered the tactical requirements for the "Super 7" between China and Pakistan, making it impossible for them to reach a consensus. China needed larger and more powerful fighter jets, while Pakistan needed smaller and more economical ones… Under these circumstances, the entire cooperation plan risked failure. Ultimately, the PLAAF withdrew from the project, and the CAC tailored the "FC-1/Super 7" entirely to PAF's requirements. After the first prototype was completed, PAF officially named it the "JF-17"...

 

[Ali_Baba]

You are correct, but that all was initially at a time, the J-10 was far from safe ... but with it being in the end the more capable fighter and also fitting much better the PLAAF's needs, it decided in the end against it.

I remember there were also briefly claims, at least a few would be purchased as an aggressor squadron but hey, nowadays even the J-10 is "too small" and light for the PLAAF.

This is the reason why the PAF was reluctant on the J-31, knowing that they could be left holding+ raising the baby(J-31) on their own, so they waited until China picked up the project and China funded its development. On balance, that approach has worked very well for Pakistan as it can focus on procurement, rather than spending billions on development of the J31 platform itself as it had to do with the JF17.

 

[LC150]

My enemy’s friend’s enemy is my friend. So may be the hostile Somalian neighbours. You can easily bribe those African dictators to buy shitty products. Pakistan sold JF-17 to Azerbaijan then their enemy Armenia is buy weapon systems from India. Why not Armenia too may get Tejas.

so why hasn't india managed to that?..

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

so why hasn't india managed to that?..

They are still in shock that Tejas have failed and will come to their senses probably next year.

 

[rafale]

Armenia spends almost 5 times less than Azerbaijan on defence. If India can finance Tejas for Armenia, sure, I guess?

India itself doesn't want the piece of shit Tejas.......why would anyone else want this headache? Even if free, you never know when it will crash killing the pilot and when it will crash land and you have to ground your fleet.

 

[Oscar]

Current FOC version is no where close to MK IA is. It could be just a little better than MiG-21 with better aerodynamics. Thats it.
Within those parameters it is unlikely to match the performance of a fully mature platform like MiG29s, M2000 etc.

Within the limited roles it is cleared, it is doing flying and that too in adequate quantity. Cross base deployment could be due to very specific requirements of support equipment. Probably, that wasn’t acquired in numbers that can give that flexibility. The reason could be imminent change to MKI A. That seems to be a different saga though.

You’re diluting and shifting goalposts - and that’s fine in your capacity but lets agree to disagree

 

[zzw001]

This is the reason why the PAF was reluctant on the J-31, knowing that they could be left holding+ raising the baby(J-31) on their own, so they waited until China picked up the project and China funded its development. On balance, that approach has worked very well for Pakistan as it can focus on procurement, rather than spending billions on development of the J31 platform itself as it had to do with the JF17.

Not to digress from the LCA discussion. I think PAF would have benefitted from early investment into the J-31 / 35. It would get a cut of production profits and more importantly help PAC get workshare / subsystem contracts from a mainstream 5th gen fighter program. While I don't think it would have been economical to set-up an assembly line for the J-35 based on the widely discussed # of orders (40) from PAF, PAC / Pakistan could still benefit enormously from certain level of workshare in the J-35. On the other hand, given Pakistan's finances, it was rational at the time for PAF to hold back until the PLAAF / PLANAF firmed their orders.

If the J-35 were developed today, I think it is quite likely for Pakistan to get funding from Saudi Aradia for a JV project similar to JF-17 / K-8 (although some PAC workshare might need to go to the Saudis in this case). Saudi providing funding thru Pakistan (not investing directly) made sense so they can maintain certain level of plausible deniability to uncle sam. However, the geopolitical landscape in the 2010s was very different and at the time Saudi would not have wanted to appear disloyal to the US hegemony while Pakistan simply didn't have the funds.

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

Not to digress from the LCA discussion. I think PAF would have benefitted from early investment into the J-31 / 35. It would get a cut of production profits and more importantly help PAC get workshare / subsystem contracts from a mainstream 5th gen fighter program.

There were some "over ambitious" incompetent people with Dunning-Kruger effect who thought Pakistan could build it's own 5th generation fighter with the cooperation with China and Turkey. Project Azm (Urdu for "Determination") was a major, long-term strategic initiative launched by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in 2017 to develop a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), and advanced weapon systems. Now there is no mention of this project all the budget allocated is unaccounted and it made few people very rich.

 

[Ak01]

Not to digress from the LCA discussion. I think PAF would have benefitted from early investment into the J-31 / 35. It would get a cut of production profits and more importantly help PAC get workshare / subsystem contracts from a mainstream 5th gen fighter program. While I don't think it would have been economical to set-up an assembly line for the J-35 based on the widely discussed # of orders (40) from PAF, PAC / Pakistan could still benefit enormously from certain level of workshare in the J-35. On the other hand, given Pakistan's finances, it was rational at the time for PAF to hold back until the PLAAF / PLANAF firmed their orders.

You say this, but being able to build the thing is only half the equation.

At the time, nobody was willing to adopt the FC-31, so even if the PAF was to acquire the production rights and workshare, thats only part of the hassle.

All well and good acquiring this all, but the PAF would also be on the hook for monumental development costs, and because it would be the first buyer, you're talking obscene procurement and lifecycle costs. But also, the PAF would be forced to develop training, manuals, procedures, maintenence etc for the aircraft all alone. Not an easy feat.

 

[zzw001]

You say this, but being able to build the thing is only half the equation.

At the time, nobody was willing to adopt the FC-31, so even if the PAF was to acquire the production rights and workshare, thats only part of the hassle.

All well and good acquiring this all, but the PAF would also be on the hook for monumental development costs, and because it would be the first buyer, you're talking obscene procurement and lifecycle costs. But also, the PAF would be forced to develop training, manuals, procedures, maintenence etc for the aircraft all alone. Not an easy feat.

Hindsight is 20/20 but I think we can all agree that (1) Pakistan turned a cash profit from its investments in JF17 by now (even with all the commercial issues earlier in the program's life), (2) Pakistan would have turned a cash profit had it invested in the J35 early given the PLANAF / PLAAF orders now, and (3) funding was the main bottleneck for PAF which made it extremely reticent to undertake a risky investments into the uncertain fate of the J35 at the time.

 

[Ak01]

Hindsight is 20/20 but I think we can all agree that (1) Pakistan turned a cash profit from its investments in JF17 by now (even with all the commercial issues earlier in the program's life), (2) Pakistan would have turned a cash profit had it invested in the J35 early given the PLANAF / PLAAF orders now, and (3) funding was the main bottleneck for PAF which made it extremely reticent to undertake a risky investments into the uncertain fate of the J35 at the time.

no chance the PLAAF/PLANAF would have accepted Pakistani input into their domestic program. Likely theyd have branched off of the original airframe and developed it under a new project and designation. Not a chance in hell IMO.

 

[Vkdindian1]

You’re diluting and shifting goalposts - and that’s fine in your capacity but lets agree to disagree

Current Tejas is doing good amount of flying and in roles that it is capable of.

Time to agree to disagree.

 

[kmc_chacko]

Current Tejas is doing good amount of flying and in roles that it is capable of.

Time to agree to disagree.

I don't bother loosing more for the sake of testing & refining, but Pilots must be on priorities

at present production capacity we can build almost 36-48 nos of Tejas annually and they need to test it without holding out so that Mk2 can be more matured and rigid and well built.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Not to digress from the LCA discussion. I think PAF would have benefitted from early investment into the J-31 / 35. It would get a cut of production profits and more importantly help PAC get workshare / subsystem contracts from a mainstream 5th gen fighter program. While I don't think it would have been economical to set-up an assembly line for the J-35 based on the widely discussed # of orders (40) from PAF, PAC / Pakistan could still benefit enormously from certain level of workshare in the J-35. On the other hand, given Pakistan's finances, it was rational at the time for PAF to hold back until the PLAAF / PLANAF firmed their orders.

If the J-35 were developed today, I think it is quite likely for Pakistan to get funding from Saudi Aradia for a JV project similar to JF-17 / K-8 (although some PAC workshare might need to go to the Saudis in this case). Saudi providing funding thru Pakistan (not investing directly) made sense so they can maintain certain level of plausible deniability to uncle sam. However, the geopolitical landscape in the 2010s was very different and at the time Saudi would not have wanted to appear disloyal to the US hegemony while Pakistan simply didn't have the funds.

Pakistan would not have learnt nothing from the J-35 by being a member of it. It learnt very little from the JF17 project, and ended it with not being able to "even" build the whole of the "structural airframe" in Pakistan...

Had it learnt anything from JF17, it would have learnt enough to not have attempted the nonsense of Azm !!!

Until the focus of aviation development projects move "out of the PAF" into private, or civilian led aviation institutions with professional engineers and professional aviation leadership(to develop), no real progress will be made in Pakistan.

Azm exposed a fundamental structural problem in Pakistan's approach, and until that is fixed, Pakistan shouldn't get involved in the development of projects, but focus on buying off the shelf and do integration work locally and local weapons etc.