Pakistan Missiles - Updates, News & Discussion

[Bratva]

Hmm, it seems DGISPR is not saying that F-2 was intercepted. He is saying "kiya woh kuch karsakay?" meaning "were they able to stop our GMLRS (F-1/2)? No".

I edited my post. It was vague. I meant DGISPR admitted it was used.

 

[Pergamon]

You're trying too hard. Let's dial it down a bit. Fatah-2 was launched. Pakistan didnot disclose it's launch. It got intercepted. DGISPR clearly admitted it's usage ( see my post above) F-2 was used.

Indian Air Chief also said that Pakistan fired very long range munitions & their wreckage was handed over to DRDO for critical study.
It means those missiles were not kinetically intercepted.May be crash landed somewhere.

 

[Hazard]

The PA doesn’t have to work as hard. They have the “maturity and restraint” doctrine to fallback to.

PA is vastly oversized, eating up big chunk of resources svery year, and yet the average soldier looks like from a WW2 era. In this modern era, entire battalions will be sitting ducks, SOWs, Drones attack etc. Despite having control of our skies, we have nothing in our arsenal to stop drone swarm attacks, SOWs etc. We need to rethink our strategy and focus on Airforce, Rocketforce and Navy (not surface fleet).

 

[Panzerkiel]

DGISPR sahab at 18:55 disagrees with you about F-2 use. Either he is misinformed or you're downplaying the F-2 usage.

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Neither he's misinformed nor I'm downplaying.

 

[iron shrapnel]

DGISPR sahab at 18:55 disagrees with you about F-2 use. Either he is misinformed or you're downplaying the F-2 usage.

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I've scanned the internet for a Fatah 2 launch vehicle either before or after the firing.. I haven't found anything... I even downloaded the shetani charkha known as TikTok to search for them.. Nothing... On the contrary P.A needs to run a course for OPSEC for soldiers...

 

[hussain0216]

The one thing that I realized from Iran USA conflict is that the Indian forces habe the capacity (funds) to overwhelm all of our defences. So the thing that we can do is improve our resilience, the ability to gathering oir strength and keep fight back despite getting damage at our side. Stockpiling and underground based will help in this regard. Submarine force is another key thing. Something like in this line.

I said this In another thread, the naval one

Seeing what's happened to the Iranian navy and Russian navy I question whether we or the Indians can actually defend surface ships if they came under sustained attack, and the answer is NO

the advantage India has is it's a bigger country, so whilst we can light up anything and everything within let's say 500km beyond that India will face limited consequences unless were talking about nuclear strike


Whilst Pakistan as a smaller state and shorter east to west is almost entirely covered


So Pakistan standing and trading blows with India will almost inevitably result in Pakistan taking more damage


Pakistans only real option is DETERRENCE
The belief that Pakistan will go so hard and fast and be ruthless against India that conflict just isn't worth it
Delhi and Mumbai need to be in range of massive multiple strikes

And Pakistan needs to have bases that can be defended, under ground if needs be
Otherwise NO A.D is sufficient to protect against multiple incoming



I don't mind the Rocket force
I think the Fatah series 1-5 is fine
We need a supersonic cruise and hypersonic option
We need to ensure 1000km from.out coast can be roasted
We need a cheap drones option with 1000-2000km range to reach across India with the ability to keep producing or buying in any hostile war
Subs are better options then alot of our surface fleet for projecting power

Like I said a humiliated India is dangerous, and India has tasted defeat a few times now against both Pakistan and China over the last few years and they are seething

 

[Blain2]

PA is vastly oversized, eating up big chunk of resources svery year, and yet the average soldier looks like from a WW2 era. In this modern era, entire battalions will be sitting ducks, SOWs, Drones attack etc. Despite having control of our skies, we have nothing in our arsenal to stop drone swarm attacks, SOWs etc. We need to rethink our strategy and focus on Airforce, Rocketforce and Navy (not surface fleet).

Yes, tooth to tail ratio has to be reconsidered so more funding can go into equipment, drones etc.

The one big issue is that Pakistan can also not afford to thin out manpower drastically because we need feet on the ground for both offensive and holding formations. On the eastern front, the other side has not reduced its manpower in any meaningful way.

There seems to be work going on the drone warfare tactics, but a lot more needs to be done. I hope the pace with which warfare is changing in the Ukraine-Russia theater is being looked at closely by Pakistani armed forces and measures being taken.

The solution to having the average jawan not look like someone out of the WWII era is to have indigenous development and enhancement of kit, equipment, weapons for the jawan so it remains economical and affordable. This is something that Turkey has made great progress with.

 

[Hazard]

Yes, tooth to tail ratio has to be reconsidered so more funding can go into equipment, drones etc.

The one big issue is that Pakistan can also not afford to thin out manpower drastically because we need feet on the ground for both offensive and holding formations. On the eastern front, the other side has not reduced its manpower in any meaningful way.

There seems to be work going on the drone warfare tactics, but a lot more needs to be done. I hope the pace with which warfare is changing in the Ukraine-Russia theater is being looked at closely by Pakistani armed forces and measures being taken.

The solution to having the average jawan not look like someone out of the WWII era is to have indigenous development and enhancement of kit, equipment, weapons for the jawan so it remains economical and affordable. This is something that Turkey has made great inroads with.

I agree with your overall assessment but I personally wouldn't consider our Eastern neighbours to be an imminent/existential threat. For starters, they have always had the upper hand by an approx ratio of 7 to 1, and yet there hasn't been any significant changes in the borders for decades. This definitely needs looking at - a slight reduction in size, to compensate for a better equipped and more agile PA, backed up by a decent drone team tbh. Any invading force will face catastrophic losses.

To make up for the reduction in numbers, we should look to train up our civilians in key/at risk areas, like reservists that can be called up on a short notice. Pakistan has no shortage of manpower and millions would be willing to line up to defend our country and we must take into account this fact. As it stands, PA is just eating up limited resources that can be better utilised.

 

[Blain2]

I agree with your overall assessment but I personally wouldn't consider our Eastern neighbours to be an imminent/existential threat. For starters, they have always had the upper hand by an approx ratio of 7 to 1, and yet there hasn't been any significant changes in the borders for decades. This definitely needs looking at - a slight reduction in size, to compensate for a better equipped and more agile PA, backed up by a decent drone team tbh. Any invading force will face catastrophic losses.

To make up for the reduction in numbers, we should look to train up our civilians in key/at risk areas, like reservists that can be called up on a short notice. Pakistan has no shortage of manpower and millions would be willing to line up to defend our country and we must take into account this fact. As it stands, PA is just eating up limited resources that can be better utilised.

Thus the need to have the office of the CDF. You never know, some of these things may already be on the cards however, manpower reduction will never be announced for obvious reasons.

 

[Hazard]

Thus the need to have the office of the CDF. You never know, some of these things may already be on the cards however, manpower reduction will never be announced for obvious reasons.

Yes, let's just hope there is a department, full of brains, studying the two active wars taking place currently.

 

[JamD]

@JamD
What do you think about the new test, I know last time you ram simulations you did deduce a range of about 400kms how much you think the extended range would have been.

Please see this post. I believe the first test was the first smaller range trajectory and this test was done at the full range trajectory. I think this is corroborated with the NOTAM.

So I did this a while back when had dimensions and specifications from the Bunyan-al-Marsoos event. Take this with a pinch of salt - I used a ballistic simulator that I made with all the numbers I could get and then assumed some ballistic coefficient and burn time numbers that agreed with tests that we saw. I am basically assuming F2=SMASH. I have faith in this but you don't have to.


Ok so pure ballistic launches - no maneuvering. I swept through various launch angles. Three vertical red lines where first line corresponds to impact mach of 1.3 - like in the video we saw (first or second test) and the remaining two are 400 km range solutions both of which are >2 impact Mach
View attachment 161816

Also measured the impact angle on the F2 test...42 deg
View attachment 161815

Notice the impact angle on my plot 38 deg maybe? for the first 1.3 Mach impact
so very likely they tested F2 at 250 km range, but it validates all of the aero and controls.
View attachment 161817

It is capable of M>2 at two trajectories:
274 seconds. The second vertical line in the previous plot. Depressed trajectory I guess. Doesn't even go to space (above 100 km)
View attachment 161814


448 seconds. The third vertical line in the previous plot. Lofted trajectory. Goes to space. Comes back at a steeper angle and higher speed
View attachment 161813

The main point of all this is to show that you can do this test:
View attachment 161817
and this will essentially verify all of your numbers for you. Now you know with some certainty you can use this missile on the 400km trajectories. Obviously, you wouldn't start with the 400km tests because its difficult to get targeting and set up exclusion zones. But you can verify your model, which is what is done.

 

[JamD]

Iirc @JamD calculated it reached mach 2+ in terminal stage but definitely not hypersonic

Again see this post:

So I did this a while back when had dimensions and specifications from the Bunyan-al-Marsoos event. Take this with a pinch of salt - I used a ballistic simulator that I made with all the numbers I could get and then assumed some ballistic coefficient and burn time numbers that agreed with tests that we saw. I am basically assuming F2=SMASH. I have faith in this but you don't have to.


Ok so pure ballistic launches - no maneuvering. I swept through various launch angles. Three vertical red lines where first line corresponds to impact mach of 1.3 - like in the video we saw (first or second test) and the remaining two are 400 km range solutions both of which are >2 impact Mach
View attachment 161816

Also measured the impact angle on the F2 test...42 deg
View attachment 161815

Notice the impact angle on my plot 38 deg maybe? for the first 1.3 Mach impact
so very likely they tested F2 at 250 km range, but it validates all of the aero and controls.
View attachment 161817

It is capable of M>2 at two trajectories:
274 seconds. The second vertical line in the previous plot. Depressed trajectory I guess. Doesn't even go to space (above 100 km)
View attachment 161814


448 seconds. The third vertical line in the previous plot. Lofted trajectory. Goes to space. Comes back at a steeper angle and higher speed
View attachment 161813

The main point of all this is to show that you can do this test:
View attachment 161817
and this will essentially verify all of your numbers for you. Now you know with some certainty you can use this missile on the 400km trajectories. Obviously, you wouldn't start with the 400km tests because its difficult to get targeting and set up exclusion zones. But you can verify your model, which is what is done.

The first test was likely the smaller range shot and the hit video confirms terminal speed of M1.3. I suspect this was a full range shot with higher terminal speeds: M2.2 or M3.4 depending on trajectory. Again these are super guesstimates and there's no way in he'll I'd have an accurate model. With that being said my model does nail the low range shot terminal speed and angle. Make of that what you will.

 

[jamal18]

PA is vastly oversized, eating up big chunk of resources svery year, and yet the average soldier looks like from a WW2 era. In this modern era, entire battalions will be sitting ducks, SOWs, Drones attack etc. Despite having control of our skies, we have nothing in our arsenal to stop drone swarm attacks, SOWs etc. We need to rethink our strategy and focus on Airforce, Rocketforce and Navy (not surface fleet).

The army chief mentioned a while back the need to reduce the size of the army.

We need a conscript army. The massive savings on wages, which I believe is 50% of the defense budget, can be diverted to improve the quality of the weaponry.

 

[falcon34]

You are right. No F2 was used.

So those guys who have been putting out things right of their asses deserve to be atleasted scolded.
@TallGuy have some shame, at least check your source before spewing shit.

 

[falcon34]

You're trying too hard. Let's dial it down a bit. Fatah-2 was launched. Pakistan didnot disclose it's launch. It got intercepted. DGISPR clearly admitted it's usage ( see my post above) F-2 was used.

I am not trying too hard interception of such missile would have created a big in Delhi's skyline, and wherever the targets were.
Secondly not a single vid of F2 launch is available.
Thirdly we were fking holding it back. Screw GHQ for that
Fourth it was not their in numbers most probably it was about to go into production, before the skirmish