PTI news, updates and discussions part ll
- Thread starter Fatman17
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Irfan Baloch
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
entire country is like Somalia except KP.
I know what you are saying. some of my family and friends live in Mardan , KP. he is all praise for the great governance and tells me if the establishment had not forced the hands of PTI goverment in KP to spend its resources for its Punjab and Islamabad conquest then KP wouldve overtaken Switzerland by now.
still its hard to find a person in KP who needs any financial support thanks to the PTI.. people just stop their cars the moment they drive their cars out of Hayatabad and leave their money, phones or sometimes their cars on the road side so that some needy may pick that up.
i agree with you, for the record i was quoting and questioning the post it was not my expression or statement
Respect4Respect
Trusted Member
I used the word "Pakistan" in all my comments. If you don’t consider that part of Pakistan, that’s your problem fauji. Don’t twist my words to fit your narrative, propaganda is the only thing your institution is good at...hating your own provinces and then claim to be a national army lol.
Olympus81
Trusted Member
Four years have passed and the shadow of IK has not subsided.
The PPP, PMLN, Faujis absolute one page has not yield much results in terms of socio economic growth. So, now who does one blame for Pakistan’s current predicament? Another 2 decades of absolute one page to turn Pakistan around after the 3 year damage ‘cultists’ did to the state?
The lessons are pretty clear. There is one institution that has been interfering operating beyond its constitutional role. That institution should introspect, withdraw and open itself to accountability.
Calling a political party, cultists, corrupt, or any other adjective is unfortunately barking up the wrong tree.
In hindsight, unfortunately, one sees why PMLN, PPP did what they did. Go on their corrupt ways, go on a conflict course against the army establishment, hurt Pakistan economically when out of power, treat the constitution like a tissue paper, arm twist other organs of the state, and then collude when the time came. A self surviving instinct in a system rigged by the yours truly.
The PPP, PMLN, Faujis absolute one page has not yield much results in terms of socio economic growth. So, now who does one blame for Pakistan’s current predicament? Another 2 decades of absolute one page to turn Pakistan around after the 3 year damage ‘cultists’ did to the state?
The lessons are pretty clear. There is one institution that has been interfering operating beyond its constitutional role. That institution should introspect, withdraw and open itself to accountability.
Calling a political party, cultists, corrupt, or any other adjective is unfortunately barking up the wrong tree.
In hindsight, unfortunately, one sees why PMLN, PPP did what they did. Go on their corrupt ways, go on a conflict course against the army establishment, hurt Pakistan economically when out of power, treat the constitution like a tissue paper, arm twist other organs of the state, and then collude when the time came. A self surviving instinct in a system rigged by the yours truly.
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LC150
Registered Member
the fundamental issue is there no accountability.
no one can dislodge them so they can do pretty much what ever they want
dont worry their project wont last... as it isnt sustainable
they are just dancing around because of the lime light of negotiation efforts... but they seem to forget that Musharraf had the same limelight, so did Zia, and Ayub....and yes even Yayha Khan. people forget during the early 1970s Pakistan was in the limelight in helping US & China relationships.
look what happened to them
LC150
Registered Member
you forgot Faujeeet's favorite Zadari and his wonder full governance of Sind and Karachi ....that has made Karachi the fourth worst .... sorry fourth best city to live in....
World’s top 10 most and least liveable cities in 2025: Only one Asian city ranks high; Bangladesh and Pakistan among the lowest
Global Liveability Index 2025 Full List: The 2025 liveability rankings expose stark contrasts across the globe. Western Europe dominates, Asia-Pacific makes gains, but cities like Karachi and Dhaka remain near the bottom.
indianexpress.com
Olympus81
Trusted Member
Agreed.
Absolute menace. They’ll operate with absolute impunity and slap stamps of ‘traitor’ when people question their role.
Only this time, the majority did not distribute sweets, but gathered organically and sang the national anthem.
But yea, it’s all the bloody civilians fault.
LC150
Registered Member
they are like the perfect narcissist ..
destroy every functioning state institution and then cry "bloody" civilians
Pakistan Space Agency
Elite Member
LC150
Registered Member
yes patwarn... it is boring
we are right and you people are wrong as usual...
PS I have tried to book a flight on the learjet for Air Punjab.... I am having trouble booking a flight.. can you use your patwari connection to help.
Pakistan’s ‘Air Punjab’ faces scrutiny over Gulfstream jet purchase
ISLAMABAD: Aviation experts and an official on Saturday questioned the commercial viability of the move as the Punjab government said it had acquired a Gulfstream luxury aircraft as part of “Air Punjab,” an upcoming airline registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission of Pakistan...
www.arabnews.com
Oscar
Moderator
Imran Khan’s removal matters, but not in the way his supporters usually frame it.
The strongest case for removing him in 2022 was that he had already lost governing support, was facing serious economic stress, and had no clear path to stabilizing the situation right?
But no - The current regime has actually proven the larger point I outlined.
Once in power, it fell back on the same familiar formula of IMF dependence, diplomatic optics, elite management, and short term external relief while the deeper structural problems stayed untouched.
That is why the issue is bigger than PTI, bigger than the establishment alone, and bigger than Imran Khan as a personality.
The problem sits in the political culture itself, in the patronage habits, short horizon thinking, personalization of power, and the wider social pool that keeps reproducing the same outcomes no matter who comes in.
In that sense, even if Imran Khan had stayed in power, the best likely result was still some version of what we see now, MoUs, IMF dependence, symbolic diplomacy, and temporary breathing space sold as strategy, because Pakistan’s real crisis is deeper than one leader or one institution and runs through the way power, society, and reward are organized in the country.
And yes that is also why this needs to change, but probably cannot in any immediate or clean way, because the very people who benefit from the current order are the ones sitting on top of politics, bureaucracy, business, media, and even much of social influence, while the wider public is also too conditioned by short term survival, sifarish, personality worship, and immediate reward to consistently demand something better.
The qaum that doesn’t even know how to park cars at a mosque or give way to ambulances cannot be expected to do any revolutionary “tabdeeli”
What would actually need to change is not just one government or one institution, but the social habits underneath all of it in terms of more respect for merit over connections, more willingness to accept delayed reward, more civic discipline, more honesty about corruption at the family and community level, and more value placed on institution building over following savior figures.
And the hard truth is that this change cannot be brought by one leader, one party, or one election. It would have to come from society itself, through parents, schools, local communities, serious teachers, honest professionals, and a middle class willing to stop acting transactional in private while demanding morality in public, because until the social pool changes, the state built from that pool will keep producing the same result.
Cipher212
Registered Member
The answer to all of that is education honestly. A more educated, literate and uniform general population can instantly fix majority of issues the country is facing. Good social habits can be indoctrinated into future generations. The British didn't get up one day and learn how to wait in line or blow their nose. It is taught to them from day one in public schools.
Best thing any govt can do right now is reattempt the single national syllabus and pump money into education. It will be a painful transition for the first generation but it is the best way to 'flatten' Pakistan society as it is currently extremely segmented. The elite speaks a different language, the middle class speaks Urdu, the poor speak their regional language, the dressing changes, the style changes. It's like a white labelled version of the Hindu Caste system. There is no interoperability between our people. Yes, it will not fix the abject poverty in Pakistan overnight but it will at least make Pakistan a single 'nation'.
With modern technology especially we can adopt the Iranian, Cuban, Korean models. An elite teacher corps that teaches in-person/online for remote areas. Madrassas and Private Schools will resist but so what? Are they stronger than state? If so then lets give up and give country back to goray. They will run it better.
There is a catch though, due to the nature of kursi in Pakistan. You never know which day is your last, courtesy of all parties pulling each other's leg and military coming round every few years to do soft or hard coups. What happens then is everyone is focused on short-term 'brick and mortar' projects that are visible and easy to sell, with no concern for the longevity.
I remember many such projects initiated especially by Sharifs in Punjab which always seem so ill thought out, as if they were hurriedly put together to get vote, not to last. One example is Dolphin police. They imported 500cc Honda bikes and I believe even the helmets and headsets were imported. They were great for a couple of years then I started noticing dozens of those bikes being thrown out in the open in government lots. Why not buy a local 125cc or 150cc bike and kit that out for police? At least you can maintain it then.
I could listen out many ill-planned development projects like that but you get the point.
Oscar
Moderator
I mostly agree with you. Education probably is the closest thing Pakistan has to a real long term fix, and over time a better educated population usually does improve productivity, incomes, and social mobility. But in Pakistan’s case, the problem is not just getting kids into schools because what if what they are actually learning isn’t useful to anyone?
That is the wada catch.
Pakistan’s learning outcomes are so weak that simply spending more money or forcing one syllabus on everyone will not magically fix society. A quick google search will show that surface numbers of education are false and huge numbers of children are still struggling with basic reading and math at early grade levels and going onto be “matriculated” while unable to converse in English or read it properly or understand basic concepts.
So yes, education matters, but it needs direction. If the system just produces students who can memorize, pass exams, and repeat slogans, then you are not building a healthier society, you are just producing more certificate and rubber stamped people inside the same broken culture - this forum is ample evidence to it.
Living example of why that is harder than it sounds. Look at KP. PTI had over a decade there, declared education emergencies, increased budgets sharply, hired teachers by the tens of thousands, and made it a core part of their identity and brand. That is not nothing. The intent and the investment were real.
But the actual results tell a different story. Quoting from google: Adult literacy in KP barely moved between 2013 and 2023, staying stuck around 51 to 52 percent, while Punjab raised theirs steadily to 66 percent in the same period. Youth literacy in KP sat at around 55 percent while Punjab pushed above 70. Nearly 37 percent of KP school age children were still not enrolled by 2023.
So KP under PTI spent more, talked more, and governed longer in that one province than anywhere else, and still fell behind. Why? Because the same patterns showed up inside the reform itself. Budget increases went mostly to salaries rather than learning outcomes, teacher hiring got politicized despite the merit narrative, temporary teachers stayed in limbo for years, schools were announced that lacked basic infrastructure, and monitoring stayed internal rather than genuinely independent. The intent was real. The implementation fell back into the same old habits.
Now, can you blame Imran Khan for this? Partly yes. He had the platform, the mandate, and the brand loyalty in KP that no other leader had. If any leader could have forced sustained institutional follow through in Pakistan’s recent history, it should have been him in that province. That he could not, or did not, is a legitimate failure of leadership. But here is where it also becomes about PTI supporters themselves. The same base that wanted accountability from others kept giving KP a pass. Every failure got explained away as establishment interference, federal underfunding, or the security situation in merged districts. Valid excuses partly, but also a pattern of not holding your own side to the same standard you demand from opponents.
But let’s be clear, this is not an argument that the other parties are better or that supporting PTI was wrong. PPP has run Sindh for nearly two decades and its literacy outcomes are not dramatically better. Punjab under the Sharifs built motorways and orange trains while the same learning poverty persisted underneath the optics. Every party, every government, every leader has failed this specific test in their own way.
Which brings it all back to the point I made earlier….The real issue is not which party you support. It is that Pakistanis across the board, supporters of every party, keep evaluating governments on the wrong things. On slogans, on personality, on symbolic projects, on who your opponent is rather than what you yourself are building. Until the social habit of demanding measurable, sustained, unglamorous institutional outcomes changes, education reform will keep getting announced, budgeted, celebrated, and then quietly abandoned when the political cycle moves on.
And that is why the only realistic path at this point probably runs through non state intervention. Independent civil society monitoring, private and NGO programs, community accountability structures, and international technical partnerships that are insulated from political cycles rather than dependent on whichever party is in Islamabad or Peshawar this year.
Not because the state should be let off the hook, but because waiting for the state to fix itself from within, given everything this thread has been about, is itself a form of the same short-term magical thinking that keeps Pakistan stuck in the loop.
Oscar
Moderator
On the note of private or non state education
It is real but it also comes with its own minefield, and that minefield is partly self inflicted. Pakistan has a documented history of genuine bad actors, NGOs and foreign funded organisations that have been found operating outside their mandate, pushing agendas that conflict with state interests or carrying out actual intelligence linked activities. Those cases are real and they matter.
But the problem is that because of those bad apples, the entire sector gets painted with the same brush. Organizations doing measurable, unglamorous, foundational work in literacy and numeracy get shut down, restricted, or harassed because the state cannot distinguish between a genuine education NGO and a foreign interference vector. So Pakistan ends up with the worst of both worlds. A state that cannot deliver education at scale, and a civil society that keeps getting strangled before it can fill the gap.
The metrics do show something though, and it is worth being honest about it. In areas where third party organisations have been given genuine freedom to operate, progress is slow but it is actually measurable and more consistent than gornamint or even Fauji programs.
Foundational literacy interventions run by independent bodies have shown better learning outcomes than comparable government programs in the same regions. The problem is pace and scale. Pakistan has a massive and still growing population, and the gap between what independent programs can realistically reach and what the country actually needs is enormous. So even where the model works, it is potentially a case of too little too late.
Which is why this probably does not end cleanly. It ends probabilistically.
You keep grinding through the current cycle, you let whatever third party work survives the state’s suspicion do its job at the margins, you watch the slow demographic and economic pressure build, and you wait for the probability that somewhere in that mass of people, a genuine group of leaders eventually emerges who are not beholden to the legacy system, who were not produced by it, who did not need it to get where they are, and who are willing to absorb the cost of delayed reward long enough to actually change something structural. I believed PTI was that - and it was in many ways but its top leadership was not especially where it mattered and also who were supplanted trying to adopt to the system.
Pakistan has the population and occasionally the raw talent. What it has never consistently had is the institutional conditions to let that talent lead rather than compromise or get swallowed. That remains the real Allah Janay.
It is real but it also comes with its own minefield, and that minefield is partly self inflicted. Pakistan has a documented history of genuine bad actors, NGOs and foreign funded organisations that have been found operating outside their mandate, pushing agendas that conflict with state interests or carrying out actual intelligence linked activities. Those cases are real and they matter.
But the problem is that because of those bad apples, the entire sector gets painted with the same brush. Organizations doing measurable, unglamorous, foundational work in literacy and numeracy get shut down, restricted, or harassed because the state cannot distinguish between a genuine education NGO and a foreign interference vector. So Pakistan ends up with the worst of both worlds. A state that cannot deliver education at scale, and a civil society that keeps getting strangled before it can fill the gap.
The metrics do show something though, and it is worth being honest about it. In areas where third party organisations have been given genuine freedom to operate, progress is slow but it is actually measurable and more consistent than gornamint or even Fauji programs.
Foundational literacy interventions run by independent bodies have shown better learning outcomes than comparable government programs in the same regions. The problem is pace and scale. Pakistan has a massive and still growing population, and the gap between what independent programs can realistically reach and what the country actually needs is enormous. So even where the model works, it is potentially a case of too little too late.
Which is why this probably does not end cleanly. It ends probabilistically.
You keep grinding through the current cycle, you let whatever third party work survives the state’s suspicion do its job at the margins, you watch the slow demographic and economic pressure build, and you wait for the probability that somewhere in that mass of people, a genuine group of leaders eventually emerges who are not beholden to the legacy system, who were not produced by it, who did not need it to get where they are, and who are willing to absorb the cost of delayed reward long enough to actually change something structural. I believed PTI was that - and it was in many ways but its top leadership was not especially where it mattered and also who were supplanted trying to adopt to the system.
Pakistan has the population and occasionally the raw talent. What it has never consistently had is the institutional conditions to let that talent lead rather than compromise or get swallowed. That remains the real Allah Janay.
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