PAF F-16 | Discussions

[Cipher212]

Would still prefer to see the F-16s start getting phased out right away. How long can we argue for 75 F-16s because of 'muh training and infrastructure'. We had more than a 100 Sabres didn't we? Bet there was a lot of training and doctrine sunk into those. They still had to go.

Because that frees up funds for more J-10s or J-35s, and one less type to maintain and worry about. Less Americans on your airbases too.

 

[Oscar]

Would still prefer to see the F-16s start getting phased out right away. How long can we argue for 75 F-16s because of 'muh training and infrastructure'. We had more than a 100 Sabres didn't we? Bet there was a lot of training and doctrine sunk into those. They still had to go.

Because that frees up funds for more J-10s or J-35s, and one less type to maintain and worry about. Less Americans on your airbases too.

This is intended to sting but how long did you use the Sabres?
The PAF inducted the F-86 Sabre in 1956 and retired it in 1980. That is a service life of exactly 24 years but the F-86 was a first-generation jet built for the Korean War era. By 1980, it was going up against Mach 2, missile-armed interceptors. It had to go because the jump from was absolute. A Sabre in 1980 was fundamentally useless in modern air combat.

Now look at the F-16s. Yes, the early blocks are old airframes but a F-16 MLU with Link-16 datalink, AMRAAMs, is still a highly lethal, multi-role 4th-generation platform. You cannot compare the obsolescence of a 1950s gunfighter to a modernized F-16. One was a flying museum piece; the other is still the backbone of air forces globally.

Then, as if money grows on trees for a bankrupt country like Pakistan... phasing out 75 F-16s 'right away' is a logistical nightmare If you dump 75 BVR-capable F-16s tomorrow to 'free up funds,' you create a massive capability gap just because you personally tired of American strings attached and somehow J-10s are sitting in warehouses in China ready to be packaged with free shipping.

 

[Yasser76]

They had selected the Su-27 in early 90s. The Indian government pressured the Russian government to not grant the program for Pakistan

Sure, but by no means were these PAF's first choice

 

[Dalit]

Gripen wasn't evaluated, the Swedes blocked any potential deal due to the US embargo. The only time they allowed them fly a Gripen was a joyide for one of PAF's senior leaders.

Yes. The Swedes blocked the sale. Let's look at the numbers today. The Gripen has been in service longer since the 90s. Yet the JF-17 has caught up in spectacular manner.

 

[Ak01]

he americans asked for a ridiculous price plus with many conditions.

the reality is Pakistan made this bed.

I am the most Pakistan first person you'll meet, but this is a DIRECT consequence of Pakistans utterly poor security measures to prevent tech leakage. It HAS happened before and other contractors in the Pak space have had data breaches due to us. Heck, our own organisations like PAC etc have utterly poor security measures in place. Do you think China is going to hand over J-35's without heavy conditions? Heck, how do you know ACM aman would have agreed to the terms set out by China on J-10? After all, the deal was signed by Sidhu, who is clearly more interested in leaving a legacy.

The F-16V's SABR shares 95% software commonality with the F-35's APG-81. This is a huge security risk, after all, software is key. Any breach puts not only the SABR at risk, but also the F-35, which is what the west is hedging its bets on against China. I can understand why the US is iffy about selling us kit like the SABR. Though, im sure it will happen.

 

[side-winder]

the reality is Pakistan made this bed.

I am the most Pakistan first person you'll meet, but this is a DIRECT consequence of Pakistans utterly poor security measures to prevent tech leakage. It HAS happened before and other contractors in the Pak space have had data breaches due to us. Heck, our own organisations like PAC etc have utterly poor security measures in place. Do you think China is going to hand over J-35's without heavy conditions? Heck, how do you know ACM aman would have agreed to the terms set out by China on J-10? After all, the deal was signed by Sidhu, who is clearly more interested in leaving a legacy.

The F-16V's SABR shares 95% software commonality with the F-35's APG-81. This is a huge security risk, after all, software is key. Any breach puts not only the SABR at risk, but also the F-35, which is what the west is hedging its bets on against China. I can understand why the US is iffy about selling us kit like the SABR. Though, im sure it will happen.

From my own experience, the chinese are still a bit more flexible on many things.

The TST teams for both F16s and J10s remain present in Pakistan however, i have experienced the americans to be more authoritarive and controlling. Like just an example, the americans have complete access to the CCTV network for monitoring of F16s inside the HAS or hangars where any maintenance can be done - they can even check the security IDs of authorized personnel and complain to base cdr directly even if a slight violation is observed. And this is just for the current F16 fleet. I can only imagine what sort of conditions and price tags they would have put up for Block 70s.

The chinese keep control of many technical things in J10s however, they ain't this much bossy. They sometimes even do chota mota stuff outside the contractual obligations.

 

[Ak01]

From my own experience, the chinese are still a bit more flexible on many things.

The TST teams for both F16s and J10s remain present in Pakistan however, i have experienced the americans to be more authoritarive and controlling. Like just an example, the americans have complete access to the CCTV network for monitoring of F16s inside the HAS or hangars where any maintenance can be done - they can even check the security IDs of authorized personnel and complain to base cdr directly even if a slight violation is observed. And this is just for the current F16 fleet. I can only imagine what sort of conditions and price tags they would have put up for Block 70s.

The chinese keep control of many technical things in J10s however, they ain't this much bossy. They sometimes even do chota mota stuff outside the contractual obligations.

sure, which i think is reasonable. Who knows the reasons behind this. F-16s have been around for decades, SOP's evolve, god knows why the strictness now, but we are not strangers to gross incompetence that leads to sensitive information/tech leakage. After all, our forces are compromised to an extent. The amount of pro terrorism sympathisers in our forces is unreal, who knows what else there is.

I anticipate the Chinese policing of their sensitive tech will also evolve as the situation requires it, and certainly with the J-35, there will be significant restrictions because leakage of it could very well be China's MiG-25 moment... they will want to keep their baby safe. In the same way, with V's, there is potential for significant leakage that could cause serious damage to the JSF Prog.

Also, as part of one of the sustainment contract, there was BITE equiptment SPECIFIC to 120D's and 9X's in there.

 

[ARMalik]

Sorry there is no evidence of any tech leak from PAF or any concerns expressed by US and China. This is all pure malicious speculation.

 

[Ak01]

Sorry there is no evidence of any tech leak from PAF or any concerns expressed by US and China. This is all pure malicious speculation.

there is evidence, whether you are privy to it or not is a different matter.

And yes, there have been concerns from both the US and China about the leakage of sensitive tech. Heck, didnt the J-10 contract literally get leaked lol

 

[MirageV3ff]

Sorry there is no evidence of any tech leak from PAF or any concerns expressed by US and China. This is all pure malicious speculation.

Not too long ago we saw the J-10's contract getting leaked by the Pakistani side. We've seen military guys taking videos of positions they're posted on and putting it on social media where the enemy can pick out where they are. I do definitely think we need to address this issue

 

[Ak01]

Not too long ago we saw the J-10's contract getting leaked by the Pakistani side. We've seen military guys taking videos of positions they're posted on and putting it on social media where the enemy can pick out where they are. I do definitely think we need to address this issue

i wouldnt be shocked if half of Indian BDA was a result of self published videos from the Pak armed forces members...

 

[Ak01]

Not too long ago we saw the J-10's contract getting leaked by the Pakistani side. We've seen military guys taking videos of positions they're posted on and putting it on social media where the enemy can pick out where they are. I do definitely think we need to address this issue

BTW, there was a leak that published the passports, parents passports, NoC's, addresses of MBDA contractors in Pak, not only that, it revealed a secret custom EW program being developed by ELT for the PA- i forgot what it was called. Not only that, there was details of helicopters, other contracts, etc in there. Also, details on the evaluation of CAMM-ER by the PN and them requesting simulations against a BrahMos, type target, but also the exploration of the purchase of land batteries. I have seen the files and even have them saved somewhere... So just because its not talked about, does not mean it doesnt exist!

 

[side-winder]

sure, which i think is reasonable. Who knows the reasons behind this. F-16s have been around for decades, SOP's evolve, god knows why the strictness now, but we are not strangers to gross incompetence that leads to sensitive information/tech leakage. After all, our forces are compromised to an extent. The amount of pro terrorism sympathisers in our forces is unreal, who knows what else there is.

I anticipate the Chinese policing of their sensitive tech will also evolve as the situation requires it, and certainly with the J-35, there will be significant restrictions because leakage of it could very well be China's MiG-25 moment... they will want to keep their baby safe. In the same way, with V's, there is potential for significant leakage that could cause serious damage to the JSF Prog.

Also, as part of one of the sustainment contract, there was BITE equiptment SPECIFIC to 120D's and 9X's in there.

There is alot improvement as far as information security awareness within PAF is concerned since after establishment of cyber command - Smart phones are now totally banned inside tech areas and violations include strict penalties - but yes, loopholes still remain existing.

PAF is already in process of re-organization where manpower is being rationalized. They just need a reason to dismiss people these days.

For J35s, there is no doubt that the Chinese are going to make sure of its tech security and will take whatever measures they need.

And more than the Chinese, the PAF itself will ensure its information security - i am quite confident about it.

However about the original point, i believe the chinese are and will be a bit more flexible about conditions and strings than the americans for a given system of similar capabilities from both origins.

 

[Ak01]

There is alot improvement as far as information security awareness within PAF is concerned since after establishment of cyber command - Smart phones are now totally banned inside tech areas and violations include strict penalties - but yes, loopholes still remain existing.

i dont know man... there are very trustworthy people on this forum, who i speak to regularly and were deeply involved and just within the last few years, some of the stories i heard have been horrifying... asking to send classified stuff over gmail...etc... Also, i know for a fact of a data breach into PaC by a french hacker which was not talked about by anyone or anywhere. I only found out about this because a close asssociate of mine mentioned it to me and i tried to get access to it to report it but he realised i was Pakistani...

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

Would still prefer to see the F-16s start getting phased out right away. How long can we argue for 75 F-16s because of 'muh training and infrastructure'. We had more than a 100 Sabres didn't we? Bet there was a lot of training and doctrine sunk into those. They still had to go.

Because that frees up funds for more J-10s or J-35s, and one less type to maintain and worry about. Less Americans on your airbases too.

Considering what old Iranian F-5 did to USA bases worth billions $, no jet is too old if it can fly.