PAF J-10CE News Updates and Discussions part ll

[Oscar]

sir is it true that paf was targeting their awacs while on its runway but due to escalation they let it go

This is fog of war.
It is possible they did have it on sensor but whether they could actually engage it is anyone’s claim

 

[alphapak]

They have the money, but what can they buy with it? Aim260?

I think they are going for the Russian R37m missile, which has a range of 400km.
Will Russia sell them the R37m or will they get the export version?

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

I think they are going for the Russian R37m missile, which has a range of 400km.
Will Russia sell them the R37m or will they get the export version?

Then we should go for PL-17 which has similar range of that R-37M (400 KM) to counter R-37M

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I think they are going for the Russian R37m missile, which has a range of 400km.
Will Russia sell them the R37m or will they get the export version?

But, it requires target to be locked at the first place. Even the French radars have failed in this regard. The Pak EW/EA/ES is damn good to deny it...

 

[Oscar]

I think they are going for the Russian R37m missile, which has a range of 400km.
Will Russia sell them the R37m or will they get the export version?

Them going for the missile requires the ability to actually employ it.

Its performance in Ukraine has been mixed especially considering that the Ukrainian Air Force was pretty first generation Mig-29s and Sukhois compared to what the Russians were fielding.

Technically negating the R-37 is probably going to be exactly what the Indians did to negate PL-15 post may 7th - they adopted route discipline to stay away from PAF aircraft coordinated with their radar and ground defenses.

 

[RandomThoughts7]

He has habit of exaggerating things. I remember him claiming that Pakistan used more ordnance in May-25 than we did in 1965 war.

Hi, in an article by Alan Warnes in AirForces Monthly a few months ago, it was explicitly stated the PAF could have destroyed an A50, but chose not to do it in order to reduce escalation. I am sure the PAF regreted that decision after India's Brahmos strike on Bolari which damaged a SAAB 2000.

 

[Intervention-06]

Hi, in an article by Alan Warnes in AirForces Monthly a few months ago, it was explicitly stated the PAF could have destroyed an A50, but chose not to do it in order to reduce escalation. I am sure the PAF regreted that decision after India's Brahmos strike on Bolari which damaged a SAAB 2000.

Why a AWAC was Stationed so near the enemy Border- and why AIR DEFENCE failed here - what’s lecture for future?

 

[Xestan]

Technically - that is possible
Because a B-57 carried 7000lbs a JF-17 can do 8000lbs

A WW2 B-17 carried 5000lbs of bombs - a F-15E can do 20000lbs+ and unlike the B-17 those are very accurate bombs.

So it likely plausible that even with lesser sorties the PAF delivered greater tonnage.

We have only one proven event where PAF was used in A2G role. And that was the morning of 10th May when JF-17s launched CM-400AKGs at Indian Airbases. I'm sure that was not quite close to what PAF dropped in whole of 65 war.

 

[Xestan]

Hi, in an article by Alan Warnes in AirForces Monthly a few months ago, it was explicitly stated the PAF could have destroyed an A50, but chose not to do it in order to reduce escalation. I am sure the PAF regreted that decision after India's Brahmos strike on Bolari which damaged a SAAB 2000.

Alan Warnes' recent writing on PAF has been very biased and one sided. For us to take a claim on its face value, some explanation needs to be there. I'm not saying there should be official word on it, but us, as members of a defence forum should not take words as they are spoken.

What system does the PAF possess that could have reached that far into Indian territory and was not taken out, like most of our drone systems were?

 

[Oscar]

We have only one proven event where PAF was used in A2G role. And that was the morning of 10th May when JF-17s launched CM-400AKGs at Indian Airbases. I'm sure that was not quite close to what PAF dropped in whole of 65 war.

Well - “proven”(through open sourced imagery as the only metric) events then negate the entire PAF official narrative all the way back to the 7th as well.

 

[Ibbi32]

Technically - that is possible
Because a B-57 carried 7000lbs a JF-17 can do 8000lbs

A WW2 B-17 carried 5000lbs of bombs - a F-15E can do 20000lbs+ and unlike the B-17 those are very accurate bombs.

So it likely plausible that even with lesser sorties the PAF delivered greater tonnage.

And you didnt even mention the large scale artillery bombardment that began the week prior and the fatah strikes as part of BuM. With pure ammounts of fire used in 65 there may be more counting all calibers of shells but this was the most ammount of ordinance we ever delivered onto indian soil in history.

 

[fameen]

Alan Warnes' recent writing on PAF has been very biased and one sided. For us to take a claim on its face value, some explanation needs to be there. I'm not saying there should be official word on it, but us, as members of a defence forum should not take words as they are spoken.

What system does the PAF possess that could have reached that far into Indian territory and was not taken out, like most of our drone systems were?

Wow. That's a high bar. If so, I'm afraid that we have no proof of Pakistani assertions, or Israeli or American or Indian or any other assertions about just any war. We have proof that Nazi Germany lost the war. But we have no "proof" of casualties beyond what someone wrote. We know that Bangladesh successfully seceded from Pakistan - hence, we lost. India won. Bangladesh won. But we have no proof of the casualties that are still contested.

Caution is always warranted. But denial of widely accepted truths... maybe... but then the onus is on you to explain why. Alan Warnes is a reliable source. He's not only the editor of AFM but also writes for Aviation Week. If you think he is biased, or in this case was misguided, you need to present your argument as to why.

If, indeed, you believe that shooting down an A-50 is fanciful - here is a scenario under which that is possible:

The point of an AWAC platform is to look into enemy airspace. If it wants to look into Pakistani airspace it needs to come within a 100-150 miles of the border. We know that there was heavy jamming that night. Clearly, Pakistani jamming was more effective than Indian. We know that because of the recording that AVM Aurangzeb played. That recording is humiliating for the IAF btw. Pakistan also had access to Chinese Sigint satellites which served to electronic ID the bogeys. So it's possible that a J-10 could get within PL-15 range. The A-50 is a big target. Even bigger than SU-30s. The PAF hasn't taken credit. So they aren't sure. Neither was Alan Warnes.

 

[Oscar]

And you didnt even mention the large scale artillery bombardment that began the week prior and the fatah strikes as part of BuM. With pure ammounts of fire used in 65 there may be more counting all calibers of shells but this was the most ammount of ordinance we ever delivered onto indian soil in history.

In this case however, we’re looking at air dropped tonnage.
Also that the comment made was referring only to 65 - and not 71.

Because in the 22 days of the 65 conflict PAF flew some 2300 sorties(not all with drops) of which only 260 or so were actual strikes against India - of which 160 at night means B-57s(and the odd “B-130”)and then day sorties which is mostly F-86s and a few daylight raids - and we assume no aborts and all bombs dropped - its about 750tons total if full operational loads are considered.

In 71 they did 3000 sorties in 14 days which was double the intensity DESPITE THE MANDATE to preserve forces for Tikka Khans never happening counter offensive.

So now, @Xestan I stand corrected

I think the AC isn’t exaggerating but is confusing his metrics.

It is likely that the combined total warheads of both Army and PAF attacks on India exceeded 65 - but from a tonnage perspective it would need to be nearly 160 per day to match 65x

 

[Intervention-06]

Why a AWAC was Stationed so near the enemy Border- and why AIR DEFENCE failed here - what’s lecture for future?

@Ak01 maybe you can help out here- regards

 

[Oscar]

Alan Warnes' recent writing on PAF has been very biased and one sided. For us to take a claim on its face value, some explanation needs to be there. I'm not saying there should be official word on it, but us, as members of a defence forum should not take words as they are spoken.

What system does the PAF possess that could have reached that far into Indian territory and was not taken out, like most of our drone systems were?

The drone claim I have heard during the war from operational folks well before warned article.

I never probed what drone but it is plausible that post the IAF grounding there was a window of opportunity to skirt AD and potentially put a MALE in the general vicinity of Dehli knowing that IAF was skittish about radar emissions thinking it was a bait to allow for location on AD systems.