JF-17 PFX program

[MasterChief]

Two different projects are already decided long ago. J-31 and KAAN are those two. The question is what the hell is PFX program. To me personally a fighter jet like Grippen E doesn't make sense as we have inducted J-10 C. In my opinion a fighter jet like SU-75 makes more sense. But I think it would be something similar to Grippen E. Mainly a JF-17 version with 10 to 11 hardpoints, new engine, and with AESA radar, build in IRST, latest avionics and other latest features. A true medium weight 4.5th Generation Fighter Jet.

It is possible that PAF has set sights on an "of the shelf" advanced stealth plane and morphed the AZM into a 4.5 ++ plane (PFX) to supplement the 5th Gen. I understand the argument regarding the need for this with J10C in the picture but maybe its the J10 costs that are a factor here (thinking long term).

This does seem in the same way other large air forces are going as advanced 4th and 4.5 gen planes are here to stay for a decade or more. Given the economic and industral/R&D capacity of Pakistan, its not so bad if it is lagging behind other air forces by 10 to 15 years as long as self defence in view of locoregional capabilities is ensured.

 

[Yasser76]

Agreed, right now I think PAF is ahead of IAF in key areas such as EW, UAV, BVR and AEW.

 

[m52k85]

PFX = Putting all the system from JF-17 Block 3 into stealth design airframe.

Reasons that will not work:
1. Flight Control Computer: Oops --> Crash
2. Radar: Umm so I operate like 4th gen, in active mode --> Fail
3. Engine: Oh Sh1t, my infra-red signature is seen from 10s of miles --> Fail
4. Mission comp..
5. ..
100. ..

You could use the land gear, hud, APU, MAWS and some screens though.

 

[m52k85]

Seriously though, any change to any external structure, even making the flaperons 1 cm longer, will require Kamra to revisit the Flight Control Computer. Not to mention these things are done with both Wind Tunnel and anechoic chamber . Let Pakistan first roll out a domestic fbw system on a test Jf-17 or even on a UAV then we will talk PFX.

You guys remember the inauguration of the advanced missile test site? That was a pre-req for BVR development. Before we see any mai ka laal touching any aircraft structures in Pakistan, we will first see ribbon cutting on Wind Tunnels and Anechoic Chamber at PAC. There are other underlying technologies that also are required for the 'next logical' step, like certain furnaces and ovens, but do not expect those to be advertised by PAC.

 

[CSAW]

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[CynicalPakistaniCritic]

I find it astonishing that in a country with over 40% illiteracy and people not being able to read 'halwa' in Arabic (the same language as their religion), there's so much development going on in advanced aerospace. Job well done. It's like Somalia developing a Mars mission (no offense to Somalia).

Radical inequality will do that to you.

 

[arjunk]

I find it astonishing that in a country with over 40% illiteracy and people not being able to read 'halwa' in Arabic (the same language as their religion), there's so much development going on in advanced aerospace. Job well done. It's like Somalia developing a Mars mission (no offense to Somalia).

Inequality is rampant in Pakistan.

 

[Deino]

@Faani83 shared this. From 6 minute onwards pfx is mentioned, a brand new design.

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But if anything any certain fan-boy posts is true and even more thsi BS then is taken by another fan-boy for a YouTube-video, it still makes the PFX neither a new or even 5th generation design!

If everything on YouTube would be true, then Pakistan will indeed „soon“ operate 6th generation fighters.

 

[Oscar]

Agreed, right now I think PAF is ahead of IAF in key areas such as EW, UAV, BVR and AEW.

Thanks to Turkish assistance - nothing from a local perspective as such

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

Agreed, right now I think PAF is ahead of IAF in key areas such as EW, UAV, BVR and AEW.

How is PAF ahead of IAF in EW & BVR

UAV makes sense and PAF will remain ahead for atleast 1 decade.
PAF's AEW superiority will not last long India is working on inducting 12 AEW platform by 2032.
Radar for 1st Netra mk 2 is going to be delivered by 2026 (according to the manufacturer Astra Microwave)
@Oscar

 

[Quwa]

Folks claiming PAF might be building a single engine stealth fighter to augment the FC-31/KAAN seem to be completely oblivious to the financial and technical muscle required to pull of such a feat. If FC-31 & KAAN are supposed to be the tip of the spear, then JF-17, J-10C & the F-16s will be the ideal workhorse. Even if the JF-17 & F-16 were taken off the equation, the J-10C will be entirely adequate to be the workhorse. The Chinese have no intention of retiring this jet for the next couple decades and might in fact build future variants.

This whole single engine 5th generation & 4.5 gen business is a hogwash and shows how desperate folks are to believe something when there’s really none there. This PFX name tag is intentionally confusing and I concur with other members that it’s nothing more than keeping the production lines churning along.

Please stop reading too much into this PFX business. It’s a silly pointless endeavor.

Indeed. Frankly, it'd be a huge deal if we indigenize even the JF-17's inputs - like flight control tech and mission computers - under PFX. It would create valuable expertise and help the PAF gain a deeper level of control over the fighter.

J-10CE was first decided to buy during Gen M era. 1.5B$ for 36 aircraft but the deal was cancelled by Gen M for unknown reasons. J-10CE was always in PAF planning. It was not a haphazard decision because india decided to buy the Rafale.
With Pakistan it is always the issue of funding and that's the main reason for delays in the procurement of major military projects.
BTW looking into the future PAF will have to decide between J-31 and KAAN not both. My bet is that KAAN will be available earlier than the J-31.

Before the Earthquake, the PAF was gearing up for 55 Block-52+ with an option for 20 more (source: Flight Global). Briefly, it also considered adding a "Plus One" fighter, for which Alenia (now Leonardo) offered the Typhoon T1, but it shelved the idea. The Earthquake pushed PAF planners to suddenly seek the J-10B and ZDK03, but the former got shelved due to the sharp cash crunch in the late 2000s (recession, FATA COIN/CT, and IMF austerity), along with the additional F-16s.

These days, I think AHQ could be thinking like this:

• J-31 is being sought from 2030 to start phasing out the F-16A/Bs and Mirage ROSE-I/II/III as a multirole fighter for Swift Retort-type strike missions. It seems to offer the payload, range, sensor capabilities, and possibly LO qualities to lead that role.
  
  
• J-10CE and JF-17C will be acquired through the 2020s to replace the remaining legacy jets (F-7s and non-ROSE Mirage III/5s). The 'JF-17 PFX' is about guaranteeing the long-term availability of the JF-17 through turnkey production and indigenization of inputs (like flight control tech), subsystems, and munitions.
  
  So, with J-10CE, J-31, and even KAAN, why pursue PFX? Well, AHQ knows that foreign currency is like fairy-kissed gold in Pakistan, or will be in the coming years. There's no guarantee. Keeping the JF-17 going, especially as a locally produced fighter (with far fewer imported inputs), gives the PAF a go-to system for replacing older jets (such as Block-I/II JF-17s) if it cannot afford KAAN, J-31, or even J-10CE.
  
  
• ITAR-free KAAN may not be a factor until the mid-2030s or even 2040, but by then, the design will also mature into more capable variants. The KAAN is a big bird, so a mature variant could pack a greater payload, range, and versatility than the J-31.
  
  The PAF can add the KAAN into the offensive element, creating a light/heavy mix with the J-31. It's not just about the range or payload difference (which will be there, IMO), but the KAAN would likely bring things like DEWs and high-powered GaN sensors (for mini-AEW and mini-EW/EA) into the mix, while J-31s and UCAVs carry the AAMs and SOW/PGBs, respectively.

 

[Oscar]

How is PAF ahead of IAF in EW & BVR

UAV makes sense and PAF will remain ahead for atleast 1 decade.
PAF's AEW superiority will not last long India is working on inducting 12 AEW platform by 2032.
Radar for 1st Netra mk 2 is going to be delivered by 2026 (according to the manufacturer Astra Microwave)
@Oscar

Which makes sense because if anything the PAF is pretty much right on or ahead of what makes sense for its requirements whereas the IAF has been well behind considering what ti faces and its operational requirements.

The PAF isn’t operating beyond Pakistan airspace or much into any hostile airspace. The IAF has to cover all of India and then possibly beyond to the Spralty’s and beyond where it will not have friendly airspace or guaranteed ground links so longer ranged and larger aircraft capable of independent operations are a must.

 

[vkdindian]

Which makes sense because if anything the PAF is pretty much right on or ahead of what makes sense for its requirements whereas the IAF has been well behind considering what ti faces and its operational requirements.

I have to grudgingly accept this fact. Acquisition timelines of PAF are bang on and they always come up with a cost effective and workable solution for their envisaged theatre of employment.

IAF goes in circles before acquiring equipment and that too very late at times. With indigenous push and economic factors, it might change in the near future.

PFX program looks a little doubtful due to large number of factors brought out by knowledgable members. Industrial base and economy being the two major ones. It is likely to see the same fate as AZM. Probably, powers in the establishment want to keep the story alive for their own relevance.

 

[Oscar]

I have to grudgingly accept this fact. Acquisition timelines of PAF are bang on and they always come up with a cost effective and workable solution for their envisaged theatre of employment.

IAF goes in circles before acquiring equipment and that too very late at times. With indigenous push and economic factors, it might change in the near future.

PFX program looks a little doubtful due to many factors brought out by many knowledgable members. Industrial base and economy being the two major ones. It is likely to see the same fate as AZM. Probably, powers in the establishment want to keep the story alive for their own relevance.

TBH its another “Jesus is coming, look busy” endeavor but with little to no accountability its more a case of people chasing immortality projects - guess which type of personality does that the most??

It will yield something just as the Azm yielded a little bit. You’d hate to be the leader whose primary legacy was upgrading all staff cars from a mix of Suzuki Cultus to Honda Civics because the J-10A procurement went nowhere and more F-16s got stuck.

 

[Yasser76]

How is PAF ahead of IAF in EW & BVR

UAV makes sense and PAF will remain ahead for atleast 1 decade.
PAF's AEW superiority will not last long India is working on inducting 12 AEW platform by 2032.
Radar for 1st Netra mk 2 is going to be delivered by 2026 (according to the manufacturer Astra Microwave)
@Oscar

AMRAAM/PL-15 combo

In terms of EW, Feb 2019 displayed how effective jamming was.

If I had a $ for everything IAF was "working on"....

Point remains as of right now PAF has 14 off AEW aircraft compared to IAF's 6. That is a simple fact.