Why is the Pakistani state & army so deeply incompetent? A structural analysis

[PakAl]

Explaining the national identity & ideology part.

An ideology or national identity is meant to serve three main critical purposes for a nation:

1. Mass mobilisation of the masses towards a (beneficial) collective goal, short and long-term.

2. Provide mental/strategic clarity & direction in your worldview (both domestically and internationally). Prevent flawed perceptions that create a warped worldview.

3. Provide a coherent & cohesive core identity base which the state is founded upon and use as a base to build upon.

Pakistan's ideology of 'Muslim nationalism' has been a complete failure in this regard.

It is (1) firstly illogical and makes little sense, since it completely lacks any nativist or local aspect, as religions are not nations - especially not one as super large and diverse as Islam. Bangladesh proved this. (2) it promotes extreme religious dogmatism and regressiveness because social authority of the state now lies in religious figures as that is what the identity is grounded in. This leads to extremism, regressive habits, and destroys smart and intelligent foreign policy, as it is all centred around "Muslim" (meaningless identity geopolitically as explained). And (3) it fails to address or coherrntly confront domestic ethno-nationalistic issues as the population is now indoctrinated in the masses to view everyone and anyone as their "brothers" and create a strategic confusion between friend and foe.

It systematically brainwashes you into a deeply flawed and self-destructive worldview that causes confusion and regressive dogmatism. It is blinding.

Bangladesh was separated because of lack of Islamic nationalism, plus grievances, Extremism and fundamentalism is promoted by foreign GCC petrodollar ideologies. If only we followed Allama Iqbal ideology we would be strong nation, the masses would have shared ideology but instead foreigners paid off our rulers to look the other way and promoted their own extremist ideology, the same with extreme secular ideology.

 

[PakAl]

That's only partially true. They adopted this model because (1) it's the easier way out for them rather than uprooting old structures and forcing in new ones (2) because those nationalist divisions already exist strongly.

Do you think Sindhi or Balochi or Pashtun nationalism is really unpopular? I don't think someone can really be this naive, maybe the indoctrination and censorship works in Pakistan but also backfires cause now you have people thinking it is manufactured through thin air by the state

The reason strong ethnic nationalism exists is because of looting, exploitation, when dacoits/mafias from big provinces come to loot the locals have no choice but to follow own interests.

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

Bangladesh was separated because of lack of Islamic nationalism, plus grievances, Extremism and fundamentalism is promoted by foreign GCC petrodollar ideologies. If only we followed Allama Iqbal ideology we would be strong nation, the masses would have shared ideology but instead foreigners paid off our rulers to look the other way and promoted their own extremist ideology, the same with extreme secular ideology.

Muslim nationalism is fake, because "Muslim" is not a nation, its a religious identity spanning extremely diverse people covering 50+ countries. It has no real depth or coherency to it and is the reason why Pakistanis are psychologically confused both domestically and internationally in politics. Its not a real identity and provides zero ideological clarity or strategic direction grounded in common sense.

The only time it existed in history was in temporary *empires* that eventually collapsed anyway.

The Turks recognised this simple truth and then formed a modern nation-state based on a singular nativist identity and abandoned it after their experience. Ottoman empire was disbanded due to this.

You are just repeating typical indoctrination lines. Stable modern nations with direction always require a strong nativist aspect of identity to give them a grounding in worldview and direction. Its why Turkey succeeded, Bangladesh is doing way better, India, everyone.

 

[PakAl]

Muslim nationalism is a low IQ ideology for weak people. And it was already destroyed in 1971.

Bengalis fought for Bangladesh, an ethnic land.

Religion is not a national or physical identity. It is just religion, deluding yourself into thinking it is more is the problem, that leads to many flawed misunderstandings.

Pakistan and Bangladesh was mainly secular before 1971, only after Afghan Jihad 10s of billions were allowed to enter Pakistan to create religious nationalism ideology to counter ethnic/secular ideologies but the blunder was allowed GCC terrorist ideology to be promoted, they are loyal to their funders not Pakistan, our elite only saw the petrodollars. If we sticked to Allama Iqbal ideology we would have become a strong state, in fact it was never promoted and now people are pointing fingers at it.

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

The reason strong ethnic nationalism exists is because of looting, exploitation, when dacoits/mafias from big provinces come to loot the locals have no choice but to follow own interests.

Or maybe because some people naturally cherish their ethnic identity, language and culture above all else and some even have a sense of superiority based on their perceived historical strength and hate of other regions?

You are always trying to look for a big bad explanation to pin the reason of stuff onto it but sometimes some things naturally exist the way they are, your worldview is built around false indoctrination rather than reality.

 

[PakAl]

Muslim nationalism is fake, because "Muslim" is not a nation, its a religious identity spanning extremely diverse people covering 50+ countries. It has no real depth or coherency to it and is the reason why Pakistanis are psychologically confused both domestically and internationally in politics. Its not a real identity and provides zero ideological clarity or strategic direction grounded in common sense.

The only time it existed in history was in temporary *empires* that eventually collapsed anyway.

The Turks recognised this simple truth and then formed a modern nation-state based on a singular nativist identity and abandoned it after their experience. Ottoman empire was disbanded due to this.

You are just repeating typical indoctrination lines. Stable modern nations with direction always require a strong nativist aspect of identity to give them a grounding in worldview and direction. Its why Turkey succeeded, Bangladesh is doing way better, India, everyone.

Bro what is Pakistan then? Allama Iqbal ideology is Pakistan ideology, Muslim nationalist ideology doesn't mean we leave Pakistan out of it. Pakistan is the core, an ideology that unites us all, people with different languages, religion and culture.

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

Pakistan and Bangladesh was mainly secular before 1971, only after Afghan Jihad 10s of billions were allowed to enter Pakistan to create religious nationalism ideology to counter ethnic/secular ideologies but the blunder was allowed GCC terrorist ideology to be promoted, they are loyal to their funders not Pakistan, our elite only saw the petrodollars. If we sticked to Allama Iqbal ideology we would have become a strong state, in fact it was never promoted and now people are pointing fingers at it.

I'm sorry to break your bubble but there is nothing specicial in your imaginary "Allama Iqbal ideology" it's just more low IQ Muslim nationalism which is inherently flawed and relies on mass indoctrinating people into religious extremists to create artifical unity at the cost of mass radicalisation, extremism, and creating ideological confusion in foreign policy because you see everything from purely a religious lens. It is the most regressive ideology on the planet.

 

[PakAl]

I'm sorry to break your bubble but there is nothing specicial in your imaginary "Allama Iqbal ideology" it's just more low IQ Muslim nationalism which is inherently flawed and relies on mass indoctrinating people into religious extremists to create artifical unity at the cost of mass radicalisation, extremism, and creating ideological confusion in foreign policy because you see everything from purely a religious lens. It is the most regressive ideology on the planet.

Yes even Allama Iqbal was low IQ to some people, one of the greatest Islamic thinkers. The extremism and fundamentalism your talking about is foreign ideology backed by petrodollars, they hate Pakistan in their hearts. Your confused between the 2.

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

Yes even Allama Iqbal was low IQ to some people, one of the greatest Islamic thinkers. The extremism and fundamentalism your talking about is foreign ideology backed by petrodollars, they hate Pakistan in their hearts. Your confused between the 2.

He was nothing special, just a poet in a British colony that preached Muslim nationalism. Everyone and their dads do the same thing on social media nowadays because it is an ideology that appeals to a populist low class but then fails in practise.

 

[PakAl]

Or maybe because some people naturally cherish their ethnic identity, language and culture above all else and some even have a sense of superiority based on their perceived historical strength and hate of other regions?

You are always trying to look for a big bad explanation to pin the reason of stuff onto it but sometimes some things naturally exist the way they are, your worldview is built around false indoctrination rather than reality.

Their is nothing wrong with cherishing your ethnicity, language, culture. This is part of Pakistan. I am talking about those who look down on others because of it, become extremists or rebel.

 

[PakAl]

He was nothing special, just a poet in a British colony that preached Muslim nationalism. Everyone and their dads do the same thing on social media nowadays because it is an ideology that appeals to a populist low class but then fails in practise.

Its not his fault he was born and lived in british colony. If it only appeals to low class then why our rulers carry his photo around. He dreamt about Pakistan, spread its ideology, even convinced Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and Jinnah mentioned this after Pakistan was created. Today people point fingers at Iqbal, very heartbreaking.

 

[PakAl]

The Turks recognised this simple truth and then formed a modern nation-state based on a singular nativist identity and abandoned it after their experience. Ottoman empire was disbanded due to this.

What are you talking about. Ottoman Empire existed for 600 years, not 6 years, before that they had Saljuks and Mamluks, very similar to Ottoman Empire. Today the modern Turkey state changed from being extreme secular to modern State, and if you ever visit Istanbul you will witness the Ottoman history all over the place, they have museums full of their Islamic history and they are proud, even the secular people love their history. Unlike uneducated Pakistan who cannot even tell what Islam existed here before 1980s Saudi petrodollars. Islam came 1000 years ago not since 1980s.

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

Their is nothing wrong with cherishing your ethnicity, language, culture. This is part of Pakistan. I am talking about those who look down on others because of it, become extremists or rebel.

Racial prejudice or superiority is as old as time. Especially for certain groups in Pakistan, what do you think people celebrate their heroes for and pride themselves on?

Its about dominating and ruling others, proving superiority. You believe it is a modern phenomena created by state policies which is not very realistic.

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

What are you talking about. Ottoman Empire existed for 600 years, not 6 years, before that they had Saljuks and Mamluks, very similar to Ottoman Empire. Today the modern Turkey state changed from being extreme secular to modern State, and if you ever visit Istanbul you will witness the Ottoman history all over the place, they have museums full of their Islamic history and they are proud, even the secular people love their history. Unlike uneducated Pakistan who cannot even tell what Islam existed here before 1980s Saudi petrodollars. Islam came 1000 years ago not since 1980s.

Turkey as a state is an ethno-secular homeland. They celebrate & take pride in all their history Muslim or non-Muslim because they see it as Turkish achievements and Turkish civlisation, its not about Muslim as much as it is about Turkish, they mostly are not big fans of concepts like Pan-Islamism or Shariah. They blame the Arabs for betraying them.

But this is the problem with Muslim nationalism, it was just in temporary empires that ruled with authority and then eventually collapsed when people wanted to split.

In the current age, to build sustainable, progressive states with clear clarity in their strategic goals and future, you need an identity that has aspects of nativist local culture and resonates with a large part of population to mobilise them, that gives them a clear, grounded worldview for planning. Not rely on religious brainwashing to sustain something fragile that then backfires greatly into extremism and regressive dogmatism.

 

[PakAl]

Racial prejudice or superiority is as old as time. Especially for certain groups in Pakistan, what do you think people celebrate their heroes for and pride themselves on?

Its about dominating and ruling others, proving superiority. You believe it is a modern phenomena created by state policies which is not very realistic.

Similar to how Bangalis were being dominated and they got together and gave a kick up the back side. The Pakistan ideology is respect for all ethnicities, culture, languages and we are all Pakistanis and our state is Pakistan. This is something our rulers fail to spread, instead they use force on the weak and minorities, this inflames ethnic ideologies, yes within Pakistan power struggle happens, everyone wants their man on top, fair enough that happens always.

So what Pakistan do you want. Ban all religions and promote a secular ideology, this also failed and our generals then promoted fundamentalism via Saudi petrodollars. My complaint is why not promote Pakistan ideology, Pakistan comes first, Allama Iqbal ideology comes first, promote our 1000 years Islamic Ideology, even IVC ideology is great but dont pick and choose. The Turks promote their Turkic ideology plus their historical Islamic Ideology.
The Saudis hate their Islamic history so they fund their own Al Saud bootlicking ideology, plus Wahhabi ideology which is rooted in their 18th century revival. The Iranians fund their own ideology, plus Persian nationalism. Meanwhile our ideology is lost.