PAF J-35AE - News, Updates and Discussions

[Yasser76]

Russians are generally fine with India's tech transfer and industrial demands because Moscow really does depend on the cash for R&D and could scale even if India produces its own orders. That's how they've both operated since the 1970s, and it has largely worked out. And, from what I can gauge, it seems India's SOEs like HAL etc know how to collaborate with the Russians and are, in terms of absorbing the technology and localizing it, pretty adept at it.

The French (and Europeans generally) likely get antsy about India's industrial demands because of their own labor markets. I mean, between large-scale Indian immigration and offshoring to India, having to also have your fighters and national champions built by India has got to be grating. To India's credit, they've chipped away a lot of the hesitation, but I guess there are a few major sticking points that the French aren't going to relent on.

Agreed, and the longer negotiations drag on and the more Dassault develops it's own 6th gen and the older the Rafale becomes, I expect France may agree to more terms. If India does make the plane in India, you will see 4th Gen planes rolling off the production line 10 years from now. Europe, US and China will be rolling out 6th gen planes. A full 2 generations ahead.

Nothing to lose sleep over when PAF may well be fielding several J-35 sqds and probably looking at 6th gen options too

 

[Michael]

Agreed, and the longer negotiations drag on and the more Dassault develops it's own 6th gen and the older the Rafale becomes, I expect France may agree to more terms. If India does make the plane in India, you will see 4th Gen planes rolling off the production line 10 years from now. Europe, US and China will be rolling out 6th gen planes. A full 2 generations ahead.

Nothing to lose sleep over when PAF may well be fielding several J-35 sqds and probably looking at 6th gen options too

In Chinese game theory, there is a classic theory called "领先半步". ------ A direct translation of this term would be ambiguous. Furthermore, AI tools cannot accurately translate it into English.

Applying this theory to the military confrontation between Pakistan and India, it roughly means:

Pakistan's combat capabilities only need to be slightly superior to India's—not too much, not too little.

Currently, the J-10CE fighter jet system has enabled the PAF to achieve this goal. Therefore, PAF needs to control the pace of the game and cannot exceed IAF by too much.

 

[Yasser76]

In Chinese game theory, there is a classic theory called "领先半步". ------ A direct translation of this term would be ambiguous. Furthermore, AI tools cannot accurately translate it into English.

Applying this theory to the military confrontation between Pakistan and India, it roughly means:

Pakistan's combat capabilities only need to be slightly superior to India's—not too much, not too little.

Currently, the J-10CE fighter jet system has enabled the PAF to achieve this goal. Therefore, PAF needs to control the pace of the game and cannot exceed IAF by too much.

Unsure I understand, are you implying that if PAF can obtain overwhelming superiority it should not?

 

[Michael]

Unsure I understand, are you implying that if PAF can obtain overwhelming superiority it should not?

It's difficult for me to explain this to you clearly in English. I just tried using an AI tool to help me explain it in English. However, unfortunately, the AI couldn't do it.

This is a classic theory in Chinese game theory. Its core purpose is to protect oneself and prevent oneself from collapsing due to competition and confrontation.

When you compete and confront an opponent, keep your opponent in a state of "half-understanding" of your every move, making them believe that they can keep up with your competition and confrontation.

If you are too far ahead of your opponent, making your opponent completely unable to understand your actions, or causing your opponent to completely lose the will to fight against you, then you yourself will also be in a highly dangerous situation.

You can analyze this in detail:

1. In the US-China confrontation, the outside world has only a vague understanding of every step China has taken. China itself has deliberately suppressed many things, slowing down the pace of the confrontation.

2. The weapons and equipment China sells to Pakistan, and their actual combat capabilities compared to India, also conform to this logic. The aim is to prevent Pakistan from collapsing as a result.

This theory is very complex, and it's indeed difficult for me to explain it clearly in English.

 

[Yasser76]

It's difficult for me to explain this to you clearly in English. I just tried using an AI tool to help me explain it in English. However, unfortunately, the AI couldn't do it.

This is a classic theory in Chinese game theory. Its core purpose is to protect oneself and prevent oneself from collapsing due to competition and confrontation.

When you compete and confront an opponent, keep your opponent in a state of "half-understanding" of your every move, making them believe that they can keep up with your competition and confrontation.

If you are too far ahead of your opponent, making your opponent completely unable to understand your actions, or causing your opponent to completely lose the will to fight against you, then you yourself will also be in a highly dangerous situation.

You can analyze this in detail:

1. In the US-China confrontation, the outside world has only a vague understanding of every step China has taken. China itself has deliberately suppressed many things, slowing down the pace of the confrontation.

2. The weapons and equipment China sells to Pakistan, and their actual combat capabilities compared to India, also conform to this logic. The aim is to prevent Pakistan from collapsing as a result.

This theory is very complex, and it's indeed difficult for me to explain it clearly in English.

I think I am starting to understand more, thanks Michael

 

[LX1111]

Unsure I understand, are you implying that if PAF can obtain overwhelming superiority it should not?

In simple terms, when Pakistan is far less powerful than India, it cannot start an arms race on its own
If Pakistan has 100 J-35A today，India will buy 200 F35/su-57 tomorrow, even if they pawn their panties.
This arms race is bad for pakistan

 

[Ak01]

alot of noise about the benefits of a su57 coming from the indian side. seems like a precursor to be able to justify the buy... maybe we'll see the first 5th on 5th in the region!

 

[Corax]

It's difficult for me to explain this to you clearly in English. I just tried using an AI tool to help me explain it in English. However, unfortunately, the AI couldn't do it.

This is a classic theory in Chinese game theory. Its core purpose is to protect oneself and prevent oneself from collapsing due to competition and confrontation.

When you compete and confront an opponent, keep your opponent in a state of "half-understanding" of your every move, making them believe that they can keep up with your competition and confrontation.

If you are too far ahead of your opponent, making your opponent completely unable to understand your actions, or causing your opponent to completely lose the will to fight against you, then you yourself will also be in a highly dangerous situation.

You can analyze this in detail:

1. In the US-China confrontation, the outside world has only a vague understanding of every step China has taken. China itself has deliberately suppressed many things, slowing down the pace of the confrontation.

2. The weapons and equipment China sells to Pakistan, and their actual combat capabilities compared to India, also conform to this logic. The aim is to prevent Pakistan from collapsing as a result.

This theory is very complex, and it's indeed difficult for me to explain it clearly in English.

In simple terms, when Pakistan is far less powerful than India, it cannot start an arms race on its own
If Pakistan has 100 J-35A today，India will buy 200 F35/su-57 tomorrow, even if they pawn their panties.
This arms race is bad for pakistan

That's because an arms race between Pakistan and india would be bad news for China, because the weapons the indians would acquire would undoubtedly be also aimed at China. It's beneficial for China to allow Pakistan enough capability to blunt indian capabilities, rather than overwhelm them. It's no different to what the Americans do with their arms sales in the middle east or with Pakistan.

 

[hasssanali8998]

alot of noise about the benefits of a su57 coming from the indian side. seems like a precursor to be able to justify the buy... maybe we'll see the first 5th on 5th in the region!

pls sidhu just buy/lease 2 to 3 j35s to spook indians into buying su57 pls

 

[Ak01]

View attachment 200565


pls sidhu just buy/lease 2 to 3 j35 to spook indians into buying su57 pls

yes pls would be the best thing for pakistan

 

[rafale]

alot of noise about the benefits of a su57 coming from the indian side. seems like a precursor to be able to justify the buy... maybe we'll see the first 5th on 5th in the region!

Because India is buying SU57, it automatically elevates it to the Death Star status.

Nothing in the world compares to it.

Their Rafale wing commander was saying recently, that Rafale is capable of taking on J-10CE and J-35s. Literally one year after J-10CEs smashed the Rafales to bits.

If one year later they haven't learnt any lesson, they never will. They will buy, as usual, whatever and still end up embarrassing themselves.

 

[Ali_Baba]

yes pls would be the best thing for pakistan

The best thing for Pakistan is that India buys the Su57E and then haggles over workshare for some systems like they haggle for onions at the bazar, and the project is done no differently than the Su30MKI programme.

However, if India were to follow the recipe below, then it would not be ideal for Pakistan.

a) India does the Super Sukhoi upgrade but ditches the Russian avionics/EW with a pure Indian avionics, EW and new Indian tactical Datalink ( similar to Link17 ). New engines + airframe changes from Russia only.

b) India deploys its newly Super Sukhoi developed avionics/EW/datalink onto the Su57E offering commonality and integration between the two.

c) India dumps all the Tejas "derivatives" projects and also adopts the Su75E (https://militarnyi.com/en/news/russia-production-su-75-checkmate-prototype/) which Russia is now manufacturing the prototype of. It deploys the same common Indian avionics core/EW/datalink to the Su75 bringing the whole Sukhoi family under the same ecosystem with all Indian core systems.

In short :

d) India should de-risk's the AMCA programme by making it solely focus on airframe development and engines only. Leave the software and avionics/EW to the Sukhoi programme. Make AMCA the focus with lessons learnt, on attempting to develop an aviation industry in India.

e) AMCA then adopts the same Indian avionics/EW/Datalinks it has developed for the Sukhoi programmes for the Su57/75/30MKI, bringing all of its platform under a common platform that can talk to each other properly over an Indian datalink and also using Indian munitions etc, and fully integrated with the Indian awacs programme at a tactical datalink level etc.

That will allow India to catch up to Pakistan "more" than the current approach India is adopting, which is to treat each programme as unique, self contained and with no common vision of the end state.

All of this would require some common sense( this is a trigger word for Yasser ) and good strategic planning, programme management and execution all under a cohesive product development stragegy, all of which India is not good at (thankfully) yet.

I am sure someone can come up with a more fine grained approach on the above suggestions.

The best answer that India can try and manage to counter the J-35AE interms of stealth maybe the Su-75E as it seems superficially to have better stealth shaping of the platform than the Su57E which is basically a design flaw if stealth is the goal.

For the J-35AE, It would be interesting to know if Pakistan will develop a new, or enhance the existing Link-17( eg Link-18) to a real-time standard to better integrate the J-35AE, KJ-500 and HQ-9 with its own backone as the core?

 

[MirageV3ff]

The best thing for Pakistan is that India buys the Su57E and then haggles over workshare for some systems like they haggle for onions at the bazar, and the project is done no differently than the Su30MKI programme.

However, if India were to follow the recipe below, then it would not be ideal for Pakistan.

a) India does the Super Sukhoi upgrade but ditches the Russian avionics/EW with a pure Indian avionics, EW and new Indian tactical Datalink ( similar to Link17 ). New engines + airframe changes from Russia only.

b) India deploys its newly Super Sukhoi developed avionics/EW/datalink onto the Su57E offering commonality and integration between the two.

c) India dumps all the Tejas "derivatives" projects and also adopts the Su75E (https://militarnyi.com/en/news/russia-production-su-75-checkmate-prototype/) which Russia is now manufacturing the prototype of. It deploys the same common Indian avionics core/EW/datalink to the Su75 bringing the whole Sukhoi family under the same ecosystem with all Indian core systems.

In short :

d) India should de-risk's the AMCA programme by making it solely focus on airframe development and engines only. Leave the software and avionics/EW to the Sukhoi programme. Make AMCA the focus with lessons learnt, on attempting to develop an aviation industry in India.

e) AMCA then adopts the same Indian avionics/EW/Datalinks it has developed for the Sukhoi programmes for the Su57/75/30MKI, bringing all of its platform under a common platform that can talk to each other properly over an Indian datalink and also using Indian munitions etc, and fully integrated with the Indian awacs programme at a tactical datalink level etc.

That will allow India to catch up to Pakistan "more" than the current approach India is adopting, which is to treat each programme as unique, self contained and with no common vision of the end state.

All of this would require some common sense( this is a trigger word for Yasser ) and good strategic planning, programme management and execution all under a cohesive product development stragegy, all of which India is not good at (thankfully) yet.

I am sure someone can come up with a more fine grained approach on the above suggestions.

The best answer that India can try and manage to counter the J-35AE interms of stealth maybe the Su-75E as it seems superficially to have better stealth shaping of the platform than the Su57E which is basically a design flaw if stealth is the goal.

For the J-35AE, It would be interesting to know if Pakistan will develop a new, or enhance the existing Link-17( eg Link-18) to a real-time standard to better integrate the J-35AE, KJ-500 and HQ-9 with its own backone as the core?

Su-57D basically looks like Su-30 programme all over again. It does scream IAF all over the platfrom. If India was tp procure Su-57D what changes would it make to the platform? And is there a possibility for them to link Super Sukhoi upgrade programme with Su-57D? Getting that new X band AESA the russians unveiled for the Su-35? Super Sukhoi is still taking its sweet time so I would imagine that the indians in their infinite wisdom putting their bets on the russians and then complaining after the completion of the programme

 

[mythbuster]

The best thing for Pakistan is that India buys the Su57E and then haggles over workshare for some systems like they haggle for onions at the bazar, and the project is done no differently than the Su30MKI programme.

However, if India were to follow the recipe below, then it would not be ideal for Pakistan.

a) India does the Super Sukhoi upgrade but ditches the Russian avionics/EW with a pure Indian avionics, EW and new Indian tactical Datalink ( similar to Link17 ). New engines + airframe changes from Russia only.

b) India deploys its newly Super Sukhoi developed avionics/EW/datalink onto the Su57E offering commonality and integration between the two.

c) India dumps all the Tejas "derivatives" projects and also adopts the Su75E (https://militarnyi.com/en/news/russia-production-su-75-checkmate-prototype/) which Russia is now manufacturing the prototype of. It deploys the same common Indian avionics core/EW/datalink to the Su75 bringing the whole Sukhoi family under the same ecosystem with all Indian core systems.

In short :

d) India should de-risk's the AMCA programme by making it solely focus on airframe development and engines only. Leave the software and avionics/EW to the Sukhoi programme. Make AMCA the focus with lessons learnt, on attempting to develop an aviation industry in India.

e) AMCA then adopts the same Indian avionics/EW/Datalinks it has developed for the Sukhoi programmes for the Su57/75/30MKI, bringing all of its platform under a common platform that can talk to each other properly over an Indian datalink and also using Indian munitions etc, and fully integrated with the Indian awacs programme at a tactical datalink level etc.

That will allow India to catch up to Pakistan "more" than the current approach India is adopting, which is to treat each programme as unique, self contained and with no common vision of the end state.

All of this would require some common sense( this is a trigger word for Yasser ) and good strategic planning, programme management and execution all under a cohesive product development stragegy, all of which India is not good at (thankfully) yet.

I am sure someone can come up with a more fine grained approach on the above suggestions.

The best answer that India can try and manage to counter the J-35AE interms of stealth maybe the Su-75E as it seems superficially to have better stealth shaping of the platform than the Su57E which is basically a design flaw if stealth is the goal.

For the J-35AE, It would be interesting to know if Pakistan will develop a new, or enhance the existing Link-17( eg Link-18) to a real-time standard to better integrate the J-35AE, KJ-500 and HQ-9 with its own backone as the core?

You should be banned for giving ideas to India that are detrimental to Pakistan's cause

 

[MH.Yang]

Unsure I understand, are you implying that if PAF can obtain overwhelming superiority it should not?

Because when your opponent realizes they can never win, their behavior will become uncontrollable, and the result could lead to a lose-lose situation. Traditional Chinese game considers single-win > win-win > lose-lose > single-lose.

Being only half a step ahead can keep your opponents engaged in rational competition, rather than completely breaking the rules or introducing other forces. Making opponents feel hopeless will expose your true strength and lose your information advantage. Opponents will truly understand your source of advantage and develop targeted restraint strategies. A huge leading advantage will also attract external forces to intervene, making you a target for everyone.