JF-17 PFX program

[Ali_Baba]

Given that Pakistan has access to the source code of the JF17, what does Pakistan feels it will gain through some of the stated aims on this forum of what PFX will be ? Why does it not consider the JF17C as 4.5 gen already?

Pakistan already has a weapons integration lab for the jf17 - allowing it to do all it wants to do ..

All suggestions of modifying the JF17 with internal bays and stealth are absolutely absurd - and beyond all logical reasoning.

Replacement of the radar with a local one, integration of turkish and pakistani munitions on top of the chinese ones, and new local systems all make sense if that is the purpose of the PFX. Replacement of chinese subsystems with Turkish subsystems makes no sense though.

I can get on board with local production, and new more powerful engine down the road. However, the lack of "formal transparency" by PAC/PAF on what PFX just creates the space for a lot of random noise on what PFX could be or not - with some very wild suggestions on this thread alone !!!

 

[StormBreaker]

American??

Even Indian level R&D is getting out of reach now

Gosh, You’re always to the point. Never have I felt like disagreeing with you.

Wanna meet you someday if you’re in karachi or dubai

 

[JamD]

Given that Pakistan has access to the source code of the JF17, what does Pakistan feels it will gain through some of the stated aims on this forum of what PFX will be ? Why does it not consider the JF17C as 4.5 gen already?

Pakistan already has a weapons integration lab for the jf17 - allowing it to do all it wants to do ..

All suggestions of modifying the JF17 with internal bays and stealth are absolutely absurd - and beyond all logical reasoning.

Replacement of the radar with a local one, integration of turkish and pakistani munitions on top of the chinese ones, and new local systems all make sense if that is the purpose of the PFX. Replacement of chinese subsystems with Turkish subsystems makes no sense though.

I can get on board with local production, and new more powerful engine down the road. However, the lack of "formal transparency" by PAC/PAF on what PFX just creates the space for a lot of random noise on what PFX could be or not - with some very wild suggestions on this thread alone !!!

When you say "Pakistan has access to the source code" that is a little vague. Don't take what I have to say as gospel and other more knowledgeable members can chime in but this is the picture I've established after talking to several people directly working on the JF17:
Pakistan has complete authority and control of the mission computer. Which is why we can integrate weapons (upto a limit).

Importantly, we don't have access to the source code of the flight control computer. Or the radar. And I'm sure many other things. The most important thing for PAC to learn would be the ability to modify the flight control computer (FCC). However, I understand that this is a huge task. Messing with control laws is dangerous and you need control engineers, which are super rare in Pakistan. The limit on ability to integrate weapons also boils down to the inability to modify the FCC. I am pretty sure PAC does the mission computer integration then Chengdu does the required FCC modifications and sends a patch to PAC. I have been told and seen several times that there is no ability to even slightly touch the FCC in PAC. Not because they're not allowed to, but because it's so dangerous and they don't have the expertise to do so.

So even being able to do that will be a good chunk of the PFX program as I see it. Assuming that you really wanted to indigenize the JF17 entirely.

 

[Quwa]

When you say "Pakistan has access to the source code" that is a little vague. Don't take what I have to say as gospel and other more knowledgeable members can chime in but this is the picture I've established after talking to several people directly working on the JF17:
Pakistan has complete authority and control of the mission computer. Which is why we can integrate weapons (upto a limit).

Importantly, we don't have access to the source code of the flight control computer. Or the radar. And I'm sure many other things. The most important thing for PAC to learn would be the ability to modify the flight control computer (FCC). However, I understand that this is a huge task. Messing with control laws is dangerous and you need control engineers, which are super rare in Pakistan. The limit on ability to integrate weapons also boils down to the inability to modify the FCC. I am pretty sure PAC does the mission computer integration then Chengdu does the required FCC modifications and sends a patch to PAC. I have been told and seen several times that there is no ability to even slightly touch the FCC in PAC. Not because they're not allowed to, but because it's so dangerous and they don't have the expertise to do so.

So even being able to do that will be a good chunk of the PFX program as I see it. Assuming that you really wanted to indigenize the JF17 entirely.

If they indigenize the JF-17's FCC and FCS under PFX, that alone would be an enormous accomplishment...

...not happening.

The PAF inducted the J-10CE. IMO, the future of the PAF's light/medium-weight inventory will be the J-10CE. We likely won't see any additional JF-17s (beyond what was inducted), and in the lead-up to the J-31 (early 2030s), the PAF will supplant older jets with more J-10CEs.

PFX will likely go the path of becoming a "conceptual and ground-breaking study to assess the contemporary future air and space quantum warfare analysis buzzword buzzword, etc."

 

[Ali_Baba]

When you say "Pakistan has access to the source code" that is a little vague. Don't take what I have to say as gospel and other more knowledgeable members can chime in but this is the picture I've established after talking to several people directly working on the JF17:
Pakistan has complete authority and control of the mission computer. Which is why we can integrate weapons (upto a limit).

>> ok -

Importantly, we don't have access to the source code of the flight control computer.

So if Pakistan does not have access to the flight control computer, then if it is to make structural airframe modifications(stealth/internal bays), how is it going to ensure that the plane can fly if it cannot make changes to the flight laws? Is PFX going to develop a new flight law computer? Those things are hard, does Pakistan have the educational/universities to help with that? Not really ?

Or the radar.

ok - then new radar, and new radar software processing algorithms that in the initial versions will be inferior to what China has delivered as China has learnt to build good systems etc..

And I'm sure many other things. The most important thing for PAC to learn would be the ability to modify the flight control computer (FCC). However, I understand that this is a huge task. Messing with control laws is dangerous and you need control engineers, which are super rare in Pakistan.

Precisely - which is why PFX itself makes little sense to me? Is the intention to replace one set of a "closed ecosystem" of Chinese systems with another set of "closed" Turkish systems? I can't imagine Turkey being any more willing to handover source code than the Chinese are ? Turkey have spent 10's of billions developing all this stuff already .. why do people think they will hand them over for peanuts ?

The limit on ability to integrate weapons also boils down to the inability to modify the FCC.

The fire control computer(mission computer) would be different from the flight control computer ..

I am pretty sure PAC does the mission computer integration then Chengdu does the required FCC modifications and sends a patch to PAC.

Even worse setup? So much for the early claims of PAC/PAF engineers sitting alongside chinese engineers working on this as equals ?

I have been told and seen several times that there is no ability to even slightly touch the FCC in PAC. Not because they're not allowed to, but because it's so dangerous and they don't have the expertise to do so.

Having access to the source code is one thing - you can build skills. However, PAF/PACs approach of putting military people on "assignments" at various parts of the design, manufacutring ecosystems for the development of systems is fundamentally flawed as knowledge is lost when people are moved to their next assignment. Additionally putting "retired" PAF / PAC people into the R&D chain is also equally fundamentally flawed. The smart /intelligent engineers do not sign up to become military people, they go into private industry and they wont hang around long if they are managed by dumb-dumbs ... smart /intelligent engineers want to be managed by people who are smarter than they are as they want to learn and grow. They wont get that from "boots" ...

So even being able to do that will be a good chunk of the PFX program as I see it. Assuming that you really wanted to indigenize the JF17 entirely.

So - sounds like PAC / PAF did not negiogate any level of a decent TOT sharing for the JF17 programme? So much for it being a Pakistani "indigenous" plane ?!

Once again - very difficult to know what the setup for the JF17 programme was and its level of actual sharing of intellectual property and if the new Turkish approach will leave Pakistan in any better position to develop local intellectual property . India's approach, while massively painful and timeconsuming for them, has left them with institutions that can now build and deliver systems (allbeit at the hindu rate of change ... ).

Nothing about the PFX programme makes sense at all.. Nothing - other than it is clinical madness cooked up by the same clowns who thought they could do Azm, only to fail at that and now this crazy idea that they also fail at.

if they want to build an aviation ecosystem, then why not start at designing the replacement for Mushtak plane in Pakistan, from the ground up? Or how about the K8 or the LIFT fighter that the PAF is soo keen on ? ie a stable designed plane from, the ground up ? Once you have that, then you can build someting bigger and more sophisticated ? What is this obession in Pakistan to do things backwards ( Azm, and now PFX ? ) .... Mushtaq/K8/LIFT types project is how you will build an aviation ecosystem from the ground up so that you have the trained people, institutions and intellectual property that then allows you to tackle a 4.5 gen system or a 5th gen. I will tell you why PAF/PAC are doing things backwards, it is because they dont have a clue .. they are military hacks who have no understanding of the level of intellectual skill, ability or talent required to develop complex aviation products.

If Pakistan is having to go back to basics to develop new flight law computers for the JF17C, then PFX is already DEAD.. DEAD.. DEAD.. DEAD ... Give the whole concept of PFX a janaza now and then move on ....

( this is not a go at you JamD - please dont take it like that at all !!!! This is a rant at the dumb dumb boots and their idiotic decision making process ... they never learn because they are incapable of learning - they are military boots - thats why ) ...

 

[JamD]

So if Pakistan does not have access to the flight control computer, then if it is to make structural airframe modifications(stealth/internal bays), how is it going to ensure that the plane can fly if it cannot make changes to the flight laws? Is PFX going to develop a new flight law computer? Those things are hard, does Pakistan have the educational/universities to help with that? Not really ?

You asked a good question then answered it yourself lol.

ok - then new radar, and new radar software processing algorithms that in the initial versions will be inferior to what China has delivered as China has learnt to build good systems etc..

Yes, but I'm pretty sure there's an AESA fire control radar program going on for a long time. I think it was started 2018 or 2019. @arslank01 knows more.

The fire control computer(mission computer) would be different from the flight control computer ..

Yes, totally different systems. You know when you hear about the "quadruplex redundant flight control system" - they are talking about the FCC, not the mission computer. The FCC converts pilot wishes into aircraft reality basically. But you and most people know that.

So - sounds like PAC / PAF did not negiogate any level of a decent TOT sharing for the JF17 programme? So much for it being a Pakistani "indigenous" plane ?!

Actually, in the late 90s/early2000s the Chinese were TOTALLY willing to share everything about the JF-17 with us. The issue was that there was NO CAPACITY to absorb this know-how in Pakistan. Before the JF17, PAC was essentially an overhaul facility. Consequently, PAF has lots of people that specialize in structures. Some in aerodynamics too. Lots of avionics engineers but these are basically for overhauling the electronics. Unfortunately, there was never a program in PAC that designed flight controls for anything. So there are basically no people that specialize in controls. It doesn't help that controls is also a difficult field and no officer wants to jeopardize their promotion by going into a difficult field that the force doesn't even care about. The only control engineers in Pakistan can be found in small pockets in SPD orgs because they work on designing FCCs for ballistic and cruise missiles, and UAVs. Their experience is extremely limited (having never worked on a full-size manned aircraft) but they were infinitely better suited to absorb the FCC part of the JF17. PAC just didn't. So it wasn't a matter of negotiations but a matter of capacity to absorb.

Once again - very difficult to know what the setup for the JF17 programme was and its level of actual sharing of intellectual property and if the new Turkish approach will leave Pakistan in any better position to develop local intellectual property . India's approach, while massively painful and timeconsuming for them, has left them with institutions that can now build and deliver systems (allbeit at the hindu rate of change ... ).

I wouldn't bring their religion (hindu) into this. They are basically like us but some things worked out better for them (like not having an overbearing military). But they have a lot of the mindset issues that we have too. But since they are progressing economically, these will change and their progress will become faster and faster, and we will be left behind further and further as we make buildings to house scientists with only hacks to put inside them.

Nothing about the PFX programme makes sense at all.. Nothing - other than it is clinical madness cooked up by the same clowns who thought they could do Azm, only to fail at that and now this crazy idea that they also fail at.

I wrote extensively about that. It was 100 people doing CFD because that's all PAF people know (besides structures). It was a fever dream of a couple of people, high on their own BS. Things like that make me suspicious of all these claims. But I really do want to be proven wrong.

if they want to build an aviation ecosystem, then why not start at designing the replacement for Mushtak plane in Pakistan, from the ground up? Or how about the K8 or the LIFT fighter that the PAF is soo keen on ? ie a stable designed plane from, the ground up ? Once you have that, then you can build someting bigger and more sophisticated ? What is this obession in Pakistan to do things backwards ( Azm, and now PFX ? ) .... Mushtaq/K8/LIFT types project is how you will build an aviation ecosystem from the ground up so that you have the trained people, institutions and intellectual property that then allows you to tackle a 4.5 gen system or a 5th gen. I will tell you why PAF/PAC are doing things backwards, it is because they dont have a clue .. they are military hacks who have no understanding of the level of intellectual skill, ability or talent required to develop complex aviation products.

Interesting point: We do things backwards lol. Azm -> PFX -> LIFT -> Mushaak.

I think you're even underestimating how difficult it is to design a LIFT type aircraft. Look how advanced Turkish aerospace industry is and how long it took for them to make the Hurjet. A full-sized, manned jet is SO complicated that Pakistan would literally struggle to find enough qualified (not talented even) people to fill the roles. Even Turkey had to rely on people from abroad and their HR is lightyears ahead of ours.

PAC should remain in the business of overhaul. The business of R&D should be left to R&D organizations - and no I don't mean the SPD model but more open R&D orgs, which I hear SPD is pivoting towards with things like Qaswa but lets see how well that pans out.

If Pakistan is having to go back to basics to develop new flight law computers for the JF17C, then PFX is already DEAD.. DEAD.. DEAD.. DEAD ... Give the whole concept of PFX a janaza now and then move on ....

( this is not a go at you JamD - please dont take it like that at all !!!! This is a rant at the dumb dumb boots and their idiotic decision making process ... they never learn because they are incapable of learning - they are military boots - thats why ) ...

I don't enjoy spreading mayoosi but I also don't want these Babus to make fools of our people all the time. It's just sad. These babus are like the emperor in the emperor's new clothes.

 

[That_Guy]

The proof was given during parade when they clearly mentioned that it's being designed and in design Phase also basically a new fighter jet program

They never said it was a new fighter.

Saying it's in "design phase" would just mean that Pakistan intends to further replace Chinese parts with local parts.

 

[PakShaheen79]

WoW! PAF hasn't even say a word about what PFX actually is, and here people have offered its funeral already. I think before writing it off completely, at least, let's wait for some official version from PAF about what PFX actually is. I agree that our R&D infrastructure, budget and the work ethics of our forces are not up to the mark but still an idea must not be dismissed because of previous failures. I would like to request senior members to re-listen what Wajhat Saeed Khan said about PFX (already shared at the start of this thread), He mentioned "PAF getting some sort of complete interface from China for this project".

 

[JamD]

PFX will likely go the path of becoming a "conceptual and ground-breaking study to assess the contemporary future air and space quantum warfare analysis buzzword buzzword, etc."

Putting this as my signature lol.

 

[Ali_Baba]

WoW! PAF hasn't even say a word about what PFX actually is, and here people have offered its funeral already. iven

>> Yes - nothing provided and knowing PAF - nothing will be provided. That way no one can measure success or failure.

I think before writing it off completely, at least, let's wait for some official version from PAF about what PFX actually is.

Lets see - unlikely.

I agree that our R&D infrastructure, budget and the work ethics of our forces are not up to the mark but still an idea must not be dismissed because of previous failures.

I would like to request senior members to re-listen what Wajhat Saeed Khan said about PFX (already shared at the start of this thread), He mentioned "PAF getting some sort of complete interface from China for this project".

Complete interface? Sounds like gibberish ... what is a complete "interface ?"

 

[Awwad]

PFX will likely go the path of becoming a "conceptual and ground-breaking study to assess the contemporary future air and space quantum warfare analysis buzzword buzzword, etc."

Putting this as my signature lol.

A bit of finishing touch & most important one:

"conceptual and ground-breaking study to assess the contemporary future air and space quantum warfare under the visionary leadership of worthy air chief NI, HI, SI, TI, lord of the air battle Air Marshal Zaheer Ahmad Sidhu.

 

[Hussain]

Future fighter​

Pakistan’s PFX Program announcement came as a surprise, given existing plans to acquire the Chinese J-31 jet and the country’s involvement in the Turkish Kaan figther aircraft program. A previous fifth-generation program, dubbed Project Azm, seems to have been quietly shelved.

Design work is underway for the PFX Program, but little other detail is known.

However, Trevor Taylor, who leads the RUSI think tank’s Defence, Industries and Society Programme, said Pakistan’s decision is in line with other programs in India and richer Indo-Pacific states.

Indeed, the costs “would be high, and judging from the experience of others, the development time would be extensive,” Taylor told Defense News. He added there’s a likelihood Pakistan will import key subsystems such as engines, radars and other avionics for the PFX Program.

Analyst and former Pakistan Air Force pilot Kaiser Tufail agreed. “How the cost of such a platform would be kept within affordable limits would be a challenge and would depend on the export potential of the PFX,” he told Defense News.

Importantly, the extent of help from China “would be a key factor,” Taylor noted, and “a basic issue that would have to be addressed would be reconciling an ability to carry weapons with low radar observability.”

Cooperation appears certain, with Turkey as one option, according to aerospace expert Doug Barrie at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies think tank. Alongside the PFX Program, he cited Pakistan’s February announcement to team up with Turkey to develop a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.

However, he said, “given the very close defense aerospace ties between Pakistan and China, I wouldn’t discount that either.”

As for its features, Pakistan would likely want the PFX aircraft to “have stealth capability, which should also entail conformal weapons carriage and enough internal fuel,” Tufail said.

“A powerful [active electronically scanned array] radar and [beyond-visual-range] missiles that can outrange the Meteor of the Rafale should also be prime requisites,” he added. “Seamless sensor fusion, alongside comprehensive [electronic counter-countermeasures] capability, would be equally important.”

Pakistan unveils aircraft and rocket programs, parades military tech

The country displayed new equipment including the Haider platform, the first locally produced, Chinese-designed VT-4 main battle tank.

www.defensenews.com

 

[GenerationZ]

Only 18 PAF F16 Block 52+ is equipped with APG 68 radar whereas all 50+ Mirage 2000 fighters of IAF is equipped with RDY-3 radar.
Post finalisation of the contract for the Astra Mark 1, the DRDO is now concentrating on development/testing of the Astra Mark 2, equipped with a dual-thrust pulsed rocket motor, which will enable swift acceleration to high speeds in the ‘boost’ phase followed by steady controlled flight in the ‘sustain’ phase, thus improving accuracy and enhancing effective range to 160 Km.

Nope, PAF's F-16 MLUs are equipped with the same APG-68 V(9) SAR radar as the Block 52+s and all of them can carry AMRAAMS. I have provided sources too to validate this claim (directly from FMS) Have a good read

Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan's F-16s - Defense Industry Daily

PAF F-16A drops Mk.82s (click to view full) On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF's top of the line fighters. Some…

www.defenseindustrydaily.com

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://nation.time.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2011/09/pakistan_06-10.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjjkpDf65eFAxVE_7sIHY7FAAcQFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3HAd6Qd3mL1VDYj4Pa-qL4

 

[GenerationZ]

Chat about the Astra once in service. PAF also has new BVR missiles in pipeline.

F-16 MLUS have the APG-66V2, very similar in perfomance to APG-68, and PAGF has around 55 of these, again, these are mated with the AMRAAM. Mirage 2000 is simply out gunned and out ranged here, even Greeks are getting rid of theirs as is Qatar and UAE. Simply not capable enough against modern fighters

Nope, Actually, they use the APG-68 V(9) SAR radar

 

[kaku]

Its called redundancy - which the IAF did not have. What an odd way to twist it to assume the DA-20EW role means nothing on the Erieye?? It’s again redundant in assets - it’s foolish to want to to send an expensive AEW asset for offensive EW in a contested environment.. I certainly doubt the IAF thinks a HVA like the Netra is expendable??

There was no redundancy in the Netra - there was no operational spare once the two rotating had to be brought in.

It was not about just redundency, but lack of Erieye capabilies to work under LFE environment, which PAF was expecting. And I have severe doubt that Erieye capable to manage workload of more than two strike mission & interceptions.

Furthur, if turboprop AEW&C were as capable as turbofan one, then all be using it, because it is way cheaper to operate. But even when ERJ-145 underperfomed in service ceiling and endurance, leave alone an turboprop was accepted by IAF.

Bribes from Brazil

The agreement, a copy of which is with India Today, painstakingly details how Embraer paid $5.76 million in 2009 to an Indian arms agent identified in the document only as 'Agent D'.

www.indiatoday.in

And it wasnt like there were no spares, Phalcon was operating in same AO, but Phalcons have there own restrictions.