Pakistan Army | News and Discussions

[Oscar]

That reads literally like some sort of Italian gang with 'made men' at the top. So essentially, the rot goes down all to the very lower ranks in some shape or form and is very present at the middle and higher ranks. There has to be some professional cost for all their extra-curricular activities, every man has the same 24 hours in a day.

At a personal level, I have found PAF officers to be far more professional and technical than PA (I've only ever met one retired Navy officer so can't say much about them). This 'divided attention' surely plays big part in this. However this trend is fast changing. PAF is starting to get into 'Shaheen Foundation' umbrella businesses and other shenanigans (still much less than Army).

I would caution that this is not a blanket evaluation of every officer or personnel and is more of the on and off sample set with folks who may be very professionally focused throughout every unit and then folks who are basically unfit and ready for major retirement stage who are using their position to secure their future.

So this analysis cannot be taken as carte blanche to frame every PA officer or for that matter every PAF officer. Im fairly close to PN so there the involvement in extra curriculum activities is less of a share to the PA who by design push scraps to the rest of the forces - essentially the case of “us first” and then later.
This isn’t just confined to business but even appointments in retirement or military attaché positions.

 

[Cipher212]

I would caution that this is not a blanket evaluation of every officer or personnel and is more of the on and off sample set with folks who may be very professionally focused throughout every unit and then folks who are basically unfit and ready for major retirement stage who are using their position to secure their future.

So this analysis cannot be taken as carte blanche to frame every PA officer or for that matter every PAF officer. Im fairly close to PN so there the involvement in extra curriculum activities is less of a share to the PA who by design push scraps to the rest of the forces - essentially the case of “us first” and then later.
This isn’t just confined to business but even appointments in retirement or military attaché positions.

Of course not carte blanche. If it was then there'd be no Pakistan. We'd be invaded ten times over by countless parties.

BUT there is no doubt ke chai paani ka pura intazaam kia hua hay boys nay. Especially post retirement. What this takes away from the core purpose of war fighting it's hard to say.

 

[Oscar]

Of course not carte blanche. If it was then there'd be no Pakistan. We'd be invaded ten times over by countless parties.

BUT there is no doubt ke chai paani ka pura intazaam kia hua hay boys nay. Especially post retirement. What this takes away from the core purpose of war fighting it's hard to say.

Off course - and this is where I think the overall history frames how the PA thinks and why it does what it does. There is a bit of unfortunate events of history and those have simply amplified the existing tendencies. So when Gen Karamat says the Army reflects the people he is not wrong at all.
The intake of who went into the military from partition prior to who goes into the officer cadre today and its selection is very reflective of current states.

That aspect I will leave to a later discussion but ties back to overall society and maybe my bias as someone from a military family

 

[Aamir Hussain]

To draw a parallel, we might want to study the Roman Empire....they had no real resources or technology to change or leverage it to rule the world, but they did. Their Army got them access to resources of the known world at that time.. Their leverage was the Roman shield, armor, the short sword and its foot soldier and the ability to march 20 miles on foot every day. I feel Pakistan is, somewhat in the same circumstances.

 

[Fatman17]

 

[Fatman17]

Off course - and this is where I think the overall history frames how the PA thinks and why it does what it does. There is a bit of unfortunate events of history and those have simply amplified the existing tendencies. So when Gen Karamat says the Army reflects the people he is not wrong at all.
The intake of who went into the military from partition prior to who goes into the officer cadre today and its selection is very reflective of current states.

That aspect I will leave to a later discussion but ties back to overall society and maybe my bias as someone from a military family

From independence until 1971 the officer selection was based on family background - military family - schooling English medium - eligibility at least 2nd Division marks. I should know as I went through it.
After 1971 the induction and selection was "opened" to all pakistanis of every background because army needed officers and jawans.
Then 1977 happened and the "islamization" of the military started. All pre-71 entitlements were changed. Services "club" became "mess" Ranks were changed esp NCOs. The system was redefined. All colonial traditions were stopped. Parade orders and military music just to name a few.
Finally as the army grew from 250,000 to now 700,000 personnel a lot of officers aged between 45-48 who didn't make Colonel or above were retiring. They needed jobs - hence the Fauji Foundation was set up to train and provide jobs in the "civilian " sector - PIDC - PNSC - NLC - FWO - DHA - BANKS- CEMENT - FERTILISER etc. The civilian business grew by leaps and bounds. By one estimate 4B$ annual turnover. - Military Inc is good start to understand how it works.
awards of agricultural land on retirement.
According to Military Inc the net worth of generals ranges from 100m to 500m PKR on retirement.
No wonder everyone wants to join the army.

 

[Yasser76]

From independence until 1971 the officer selection was based on family background - military family - schooling English medium - eligibility at least 2nd Division marks. I should know as I went through it.
After 1971 the induction and selection was "opened" to all pakistanis of every background because army needed officers and jawans.
Then 1977 happened and the "islamization" of the military started. All pre-71 entitlements were changed. Services "club" became "mess" Ranks were changed esp NCOs. The system was redefined. All colonial traditions were stopped. Parade orders and military music just to name a few.
Finally as the army grew from 250,000 to now 700,000 personnel a lot of officers aged between 45-48 who didn't make Colonel or above were retiring. They needed jobs - hence the Fauji Foundation was set up to train and provide jobs in the "civilian " sector - PIDC - PNSC - NLC - FWO - DHA - BANKS- CEMENT - FERTILISER etc. The civilian business grew by leaps and bounds. By one estimate 4B$ annual turnover. - Military Inc is good start to understand how it works.
awards of agricultural land on retirement.
According to Military Inc the net worth of generals ranges from 100m to 500m PKR on retirement.
No wonder everyone wants to join the army.

Small observation I noted, on personal level, Army officer facilities (Mess, gardens, housing, sports etc) tend to be better then PAF

 

[Corax]

From independence until 1971 the officer selection was based on family background - military family - schooling English medium - eligibility at least 2nd Division marks. I should know as I went through it.
After 1971 the induction and selection was "opened" to all pakistanis of every background because army needed officers and jawans.
Then 1977 happened and the "islamization" of the military started. All pre-71 entitlements were changed. Services "club" became "mess" Ranks were changed esp NCOs. The system was redefined. All colonial traditions were stopped. Parade orders and military music just to name a few.
Finally as the army grew from 250,000 to now 700,000 personnel a lot of officers aged between 45-48 who didn't make Colonel or above were retiring. They needed jobs - hence the Fauji Foundation was set up to train and provide jobs in the "civilian " sector - PIDC - PNSC - NLC - FWO - DHA - BANKS- CEMENT - FERTILISER etc. The civilian business grew by leaps and bounds. By one estimate 4B$ annual turnover. - Military Inc is good start to understand how it works.
awards of agricultural land on retirement.
According to Military Inc the net worth of generals ranges from 100m to 500m PKR on retirement.
No wonder everyone wants to join the army.

I think the US has similar programmes for veterans when it comes to them returning to the civilian workforce, but as with all things Pakistan it would work better if it weren't for corruption and actually used to catalyse growth in the overall economy for everyone.

 

[Fatman17]

Small observation I noted, on personal level, Army officer facilities (Mess, gardens, housing, sports etc) tend to be better then PAF

$$$

 

[Yasser76]

$$$

Yes, the irony was not last on me. Officers of a light infantry Brigade consisting mainly of just small arms and trucks living like kings compared to officers piloting $80 million jets....

 

[Watandar]

I think the US has similar programmes for veterans when it comes to them returning to the civilian workforce, but as with all things Pakistan it would work better if it weren't for corruption and actually used to catalyse growth in the overall economy for everyone.

Veterans receive a preference in hiring for federal jobs and private companies also get some incentives to hire them. US veterans also have access to a vast catalog of benefits like subsidized housing, healthcare for life etc. But there is no equivalent of military-businesses like Fauji Foundation , Army Welfare Trust, Shaheen Foundation et

 

[puttputt]

To draw a parallel, we might want to study the Roman Empire....they had no real resources or technology to change or leverage it to rule the world, but they did. Their Army got them access to resources of the known world at that time.. Their leverage was the Roman shield, armor, the short sword and its foot soldier and the ability to march 20 miles on foot every day. I feel Pakistan is, somewhat in the same circumstances.

Not disagreeing, but there's a crucial nuance here...the Roman Republic was willing to annex others' lands. Even when the geography merits it (e.g., access to Central Asia), or when the resource needs demand it (no oil/gas deposits of our own), we don't march or sail to take what others have to support our national interests.

The Israelis are doing it.
The Americans did it.
The British franchised it.

We are intentionally walking away from it for one reason or another, and UNTIL we don't cross whatever mental threshold stopping us from taking that path, we won't be the power we ought to be.

 

[Yasser76]

Not disagreeing, but there's a crucial nuance here...the Roman Republic was willing to annex others' lands. Even when the geography merits it (e.g., access to Central Asia), or when the resource needs demand it (no oil/gas deposits of our own), we don't march or sail to take what others have to support our national interests.

The Israelis are doing it.
The Americans did it.
The British franchised it.

We are intentionally walking away from it for one reason or another, and UNTIL we don't cross whatever mental threshold stopping us from taking that path, we won't be the power we ought to be.

Pipe down Napoleon. No one is going on a war of conquest anywhere. Simple geography will show you that

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

Not disagreeing, but there's a crucial nuance here...the Roman Republic was willing to annex others' lands. Even when the geography merits it (e.g., access to Central Asia), or when the resource needs demand it (no oil/gas deposits of our own), we don't march or sail to take what others have to support our national interests.

The Israelis are doing it.
The Americans did it.
The British franchised it.

We are intentionally walking away from it for one reason or another, and UNTIL we don't cross whatever mental threshold stopping us from taking that path, we won't be the power we ought to be.

Its 2026 and the geopolitical environment doesnt allow imperial conquest as a norm without facing sanctions, scrutiny, and condemnation. We are a few centuries late unfortunately lol.

We need to control our own borders first, look at Balochistan and KP

 

[Reichmarshal]

From independence until 1971 the officer selection was based on family background - military family - schooling English medium - eligibility at least 2nd Division marks. I should know as I went through it.
After 1971 the induction and selection was "opened" to all pakistanis of every background because army needed officers and jawans.
Then 1977 happened and the "islamization" of the military started. All pre-71 entitlements were changed. Services "club" became "mess" Ranks were changed esp NCOs. The system was redefined. All colonial traditions were stopped. Parade orders and military music just to name a few.
Finally as the army grew from 250,000 to now 700,000 personnel a lot of officers aged between 45-48 who didn't make Colonel or above were retiring. They needed jobs - hence the Fauji Foundation was set up to train and provide jobs in the "civilian " sector - PIDC - PNSC - NLC - FWO - DHA - BANKS- CEMENT - FERTILISER etc. The civilian business grew by leaps and bounds. By one estimate 4B$ annual turnover. - Military Inc is good start to understand how it works.
awards of agricultural land on retirement.
According to Military Inc the net worth of generals ranges from 100m to 500m PKR on retirement.
No wonder everyone wants to join the army.

The most successful army for the last 300 years...the British army.
Till date only blue blooded officers r allowed to progress beyond the rank of maj.
N it has worked n they ruled the world till the 1950s