Indian Rafales arrive in Australia for joint Exercise 'Pitch Black'.

[Waz]

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[Yasser76]

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Indians messed up here as they have been hiding Rafale serials up until now.

I saw 007, 025, 204 and 206.

PAF claims 001, 021, 022 and 027. None of these turned up to the exercises.

 

[hussain0216]

Indians messed up here as they have been hiding Rafale serials up until now.

I saw 007, 025, 204 and 206.

PAF claims 001, 021, 022 and 027. None of these turned up to the exercises.

It wouldn't be difficult however to change numbers on a plane, it's just paint at the end of the day

 

[Yasser76]

It wouldn't be difficult however to change numbers on a plane, it's just paint at the end of the day

True, good point

 

[Ali_Baba]

And the could have would have transferred airframes as replacements and the Indians can version them with any serial no. they want etc.

 

[Yasser76]

And the could have would have transferred airframes as replacements and the Indians can version them with any serial no. they want etc.

I do not think replacements would be that easy to hide. 4 Rafales all to Indian standards secretly transferred?

 

[Oscar]

True, good point

It would be difficult eventually due to manufacturing requirements and logging - you would need to have the manufacturer onboard which helps with the way Dassault is structured.

But they are looking to use exercises like this to actually talk narrative more than learn - suits Pakistan.

Keep in mind - everyone else in this exercise still wants to know how the J-10/PL-15 and overall PL-15 performance is because it is a primary threat and India has gathered good intel on it regardless

 

[Yasser76]

It would be difficult eventually due to manufacturing requirements and logging - you would need to have the manufacturer onboard which helps with the way Dassault is structured.

But they are looking to use exercises like this to actually talk narrative more than learn - suits Pakistan

How much narrative can they actually change when at a military level the truth is known globally, if the US Mil/NSA briefed Trump on the number of downed planes surely US allies, NATO etc all have the inside story too?

 

[Ali_Baba]

Indians messed up here as they have been hiding Rafale serials up until now.

I saw 007, 025, 204 and 206.

PAF claims 001, 021, 022 and 027. None of these turned up to the exercises.

4 Jets for a training exercise is quite a small number, I guess they don't have many free airframes to go off on exercises.

I see Shivangi is not part of this, has she get a new mount to replace the one she lost yet ?

 

[Yasser76]

4 Jets for a training exercise is quite a small number, I guess they don't have many free airframes to go off on exercises.

I see Shivangi is not part of this, has she get a new mount to replace the one she lost yet ?

4 is small, you always have to assume at least one will go technical so you keep a spare, which means 3 flying.

It would be good if we did a thread on IAF's Rafale fleet actually. That way we can collate all pictures and serial numbers as well as reports.

Best case sceanrio they have 32 left, worse case another 4 were written off due to damage in addition to the 4 we downed. That leaves 28. If that os the case, thinsg are tough, as remember IAF were flying these quite a bit by China border.

My guess is 28, take away overhaul/maintenence and training that leaves what? 18 ready to go?

 

[Oscar]

How much narrative can they actually change when at a military level the truth is known globally, if the US Mil/NSA briefed Trump on the number of downed planes surely US allies, NATO etc all have the inside story too?

Sometimes - you already have people happy to push your narrative but they also want some solid evidence(ish) if they are going to peddle your narrative

 

[Yasser76]

Sometimes - you already have people happy to push your narrative but they also want some solid evidence(ish) if they are going to peddle your narrative

True, but this will be junior/mid level contacts and good chance many western pilots will have has classified brieifings by now on the J-10/PL-15 threat after May 2025, if not something is seriously wrong with Western intel

 

[Oscar]

True, but this will be junior/mid level contacts and good chance many western pilots will have has classified brieifings by now on the J-10/PL-15 threat after May 2025, if not something is seriously wrong with Western intel

Not exactly - attendees at Pitch black vary across seniority and the Indians will throw their powerpoint deck on there probably focusing on their successes with SCALP and their one of Brahmos hits.

 

[niubi]

The intel that US and NATO got from the India - Pakistan air combat in May 2025 is not going to be much more than they already knew.

The only main intel that they may have confirmed is that PL-15 uses GaN based AESA seekers which was sort of already known due to trade shows and how China basically only produces GaN based AESA systems since late 2010s. The PL-15 also had its own LPI and onboard ESM system and based on clues from Indian debriefing they probably have a bit more info how how capable PL-15's LPI and ESR are for Rafales to basically receive zero warning of PL-15s.

The main advantage of PL-15 when it fielded back in mid 2010s is that it uses a much more ballistic trajectory to maximise range. Dual pulse motor too. These were well known by western intelligence.

 

[Yasser76]

The intel that US and NATO got from the India - Pakistan air combat in May 2025 is not going to be much more than they already knew.

The only main intel that they may have confirmed is that PL-15 uses GaN based AESA seekers which was sort of already known due to trade shows and how China basically only produces GaN based AESA systems since late 2010s. The PL-15 also had its own LPI and onboard ESM system and based on clues from Indian debriefing they probably have a bit more info how how capable PL-15's LPI and ESR are for Rafales to basically receive zero warning of PL-15s.

The main advantage of PL-15 when it fielded back in mid 2010s is that it uses a much more ballistic trajectory to maximise range. Dual pulse motor too. These were well known by western intelligence.

O meant intel on tactics and what happened on May 7th, entire Western intelligence community were scrambling