AJK govt bans Joint Awami Action Committee, notification issued
- Thread starter hydrabadi_arab
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Oscar
Moderator
Keep in mind - that the demand for an independent or rather plebiscite driven independence has been the Pakistani ask since 47.
There is reason you call it AJK vs JK.
And there is a lot of preferential treatment that has been provided but there is also rampant abuse of that structure by people who quite frankly who other than personal profit have little connection to the day to day troubles and lives of Kashmiris.
On the subject of brass - it also needs to be looked at from a "who you are" perspective and the world view that enforces it.
The most DANGEROUS thing to Pakistan(for that matter the world) is motivated reasoning( thank you for Startalk to helping me find the actual term for something I rally against)... which is using intellect to defend a conclusion you already need to be true.
People keep asking why Pakistani generals sound so certain about Kashmir, governance, and “what the country needs.” A senior officer usually isn’t some random professional right? The whole hierarchy structure is built into the military BUT also reflects the culture - The institution has told itself for decades that Pakistan is permanently one mistake away from being undone, and that the army is the only thing holding the center.
More interestingly is why people find them supporting the same two dynasties or families because they end up in the same clubs and housing society structure. The same backgrounds, school buddies or party invites - girayin - etc. Everyone can tell themselves they’re serving Pakistan while sharing the quieter belief that ordinary people can’t be fully trusted with the state. You will not lecture them out of it. When military, political, bureaucratic and business elites share the same need for the story to stay true, the country doesn’t slowly correct. It digs in to that idea. (to your point @Jango ).
You(common anti-establishment talk) think they're running on some zionist conspiracy(which ironically is the other side of the coin in motivated reasoning) but at the end you need to start with who for e.g. FM or whoever the individual is what his world has always rewarded, and what would fall apart for him if the opposite were true.
THE KEY DIFFERENCE IS GUNS. Guns make it enforceable. Motivated reasoning makes it feel like virtue
And a lot of them aren’t twirling mustaches. They genuinely think they’re the adults. The entire section of society was built so they almost never have to test that.
M. Sarmad
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Good frame, and motivated reasoning is the right name for it...... I would only add the layer that makes it permanent....... it pays....... Fauji Foundation, DHA, the board seats..... The belief that the army holds the centre also happens to underwrite the largest business empire in the country.... Harder to reason your way out of a conclusion that signs your paycheque....
But watch the move you made in the middle. You filed common anti establishment talk next to the zionist conspiracy and called both the same coin. They are not.....
Inventing a zionist hand is conclusion first, evidence never...... Pointing at the plot allotments, the corporate arms, the post-retirement sinecures, and the high handed brutality in AJK and elsewhere is the opposite direction of travel, documented facts reasoning toward a conclusion.... One is fantasy.... The other is an audit...
And that is what we actually call out.... Not a puppet master.... The land, the impunity, the boots on people in Muzaffarabad and Pakistan at large.... We call it out regardless of whether it changes anything, because it is real whether or not it is fixable...... Your posts argue nothing corrects it, fine, but do not turn unfixable into unspeakable....
Collapsing them into "both are just motivated reasoning" is itself the most motivated move in your post........ It is how a sophisticated person dismisses evidence without answering any of it, by seating it next to the tinfoil...... You spent the whole post rightly refusing that trick, then used it once on the people making your own argument....
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HAIDER
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Hard state ...
Oscar
Moderator
You're assuming and ironically we're at the motivated reasoning aspect here.
You're assuming I bundled ALL anti-establishment talk as motivated reasoning.
That assumption invalidates the rest of your argument right there.
There is no disagreement that the paycheck is TIED to this motivated reasoning - kind of why clergy in many ways tends to exist.
Every other paragraph of yours is painting YOUR MOTIVATED REASONING Caricature on me - and then bundling me in with your perceived enemy and feeling happy about the argument that you have just railed against someone who is pro -establishment or otherwise.
M. Sarmad
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
You say I assumed.... Let us check the assumption against your own sentence:
"You (common anti-establishment talk) think they're running on some zionist conspiracy, which ironically is the other side of the coin in motivated reasoning."
Not the conspiracy fringe...... Common anti-establishment talk..... You took the ordinary position and tied it to the zionist conspiracy and filed both as two sides of the motivated reasoning coin.... That is the bundle.... I did not paint it on you, I read it off your post...
If you meant only the tinfoil subset, say so and we are done, I will happily agree that lot reasons backward as badly as any jurnail.... But that is not what the sentence says....
So one of us is arguing with a strawman and one of us is arguing with your parenthetical.... I am doing the second.
hussain0216
Elite Member
The mistake you've made, is the same mistake the Afghans made
They pushed Pakistan too far and Pakistan will respond, Pakistan is in no mood to back down to anyone nor be blackmailed
The Afghans commit terrorism, but in response millions of Afghans have now been thrown out of Pakistan, millions more will follow
Pakistan has already struck inside Afghanistan and now a civil war is brewing inside Afghanistan and Pakistan could facilitate it to punish the Afghans and keep them busy.
The same thing with JAAC, In their attempt to blackmail the state, they've riled up the idiots, caused needless fassad and the biggest victim will be Kashmiri and the Kashmiri cause
It's only Pakistans own hatred of India that will sustain the conflict against India for our own strategic interests
But the Kashmiri are screwed, caught between two elephants
M. Sarmad
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
I called the carnage damning..... You answered with why it is necessary.... That is the whole disagreement....
The Afghan parallel is a category switch.... That is a foreign state across a border... Afghans were never Pakistani.... AJK is our own forces on our own citizens, in territory we administer and claim...
And caught between two elephants dodges it......... Pakistani boots on Kashmiri people in Muzaffarabad is not some accident of geography, somebody gave that order..... That is a decision, not fate.
For the record I am neither Kashmiri nor Afghan, and hold no romantic view of either...... I do not need to..... Brutality is condemned on its own terms, not on whether I like the victims..... A principle does not check your ID first.
Brutality called strategic necessity is just motivated reasoning (as @Oscar just pointed out) with a flag on it.
hussain0216
Elite Member
You are neither Afghan nor Kashmiri
Well i am Kashmiri, from the region atleast
Apart from one family member who has drank the Imran khan coolaid and gone through the exact brainwashing many other have gone through
None of my family, extended family, people I know, wider baradari want this fassad or anything to do with this fassad
Life in Kashmir isn't too bad, ESPECIALLY compared to others
We also have a real geo strategic issue, Water concern and a hindutva extremist enemy next door
So to start this mess and expect the state to bend to blackmail is ridiculous
Their are always legitimate demands, but their is always a way to discuss them
A red line has been passed and it seems a particular band of idiots living in and around Rawalkot are in particular causing fassad
Don't cause needless problems in our state
The PTI dickwads in particular can go fcuk off, always trying to cause chaos so their Messiah can gain power
They are very Pahalavist like at the moment and willing to destroy the country to get their king
M. Sarmad
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Four paragraphs about the protesters, not one about the bullets.... That tells everything.....
PTI, blackmail, the idiots in Rawalakot, grant all of it...... Still not an answer..... Whether they should have protested and whether the state may shoot them for it are two different questions...... You answered the first to duck the second.
You are Kashmiri, you say...... So were the ones who got shot..... Your baradari's preference is not their death certificate, and being from the region does not give you the authority to sign off on what was done to them......
You keep saying fassad...... It was a peaceful protest for the most part, and calling it fassad is the whole trick, it lets you pretend the bullets met a riot instead of a crowd...... Nothing you have listed, not water, not India, not PTI, points a soldier's rifle at an unarmed man for you.
You keep saying they should not have marched..... I am asking why they were killed for it..... Answer that one.
Oscar
Moderator
But - is the tinfoil a small subset ?
So I meant common very much in meaning in terms of percentage.
Unless you are stating with evidence that most of the anti-establishment narrative that is actually sound(regardless of political link and motivation) and provides logical reasoning for the whys and whats is commonly found in Pakistani discourse?
To keep the "motivated reasoning" open - I am citing pretty much every youtube, X, forum - talk in the streets and any "sans academic" discussions on why the establishment overreaches and does what it does.
Did I lump it as zionist? yes - you can argue on that strawman all you want - plenty of other conspiracy reasoning given beyond that. But rare(and not common) is more human and systemic reasoning given in motivation for what drives actions in Pakistan.
M. Sarmad
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Neat swap..... You changed the question, then declared yourself winner of the new one !!
I never said the sound version is common.... Not common, not rare, not majority, nothing...... I said it exists, and you parked it next to the conspiracy anyway.... Existence, not headcount..... That was the whole charge, and you answered a different one so confidently....
And spare me the strawman complaint.... You said zionist, I quoted zionist, and now quoting you is a strawman...... Bold way to spell owning your words...... Widen it to all conspiracy if you like, it changes nothing, the point was never the flavour of the tinfoil but that you swept the reasoned critique in with it....
Now I am meant to prove the sound version is the majority.... Why? I never put a number on it. You invented that burden and handed it to me....
How outnumbered the sound version is tells you nothing about whether it is sound...... The tinfoil can be 90 percent of the noise and the reasoned critique is still reasoned........ Filing it next to the conspiracy is still a smear.
So common tinfoil is not the gotcha you think.... I never said it was rare.... You are refuting a claim I did not make, because the one I did make, that you bundled the sound version in with the mad one, has no answer...... And you did it again, in the very post demanding I prove it does not happen.
