JF-17 PFX program

[MastanKhan]

When the japanese made their own F-16 copy called the F-2 they actually made it with a little enlarged airframe. Both the wings and the radar dome were larger.
View attachment 29860

In theory the JF-17 could be enlarged to wield a ws-10 class engine with structural reinforcements.
Although this would have them completely redo the flight control systems.

Hi,

Why did they have to enlarge it---for what reasons ---?

 

[MastanKhan]

There was always a feeling by many on this forum, for years, the design was limited by being a light fighter. Going for a medium weight category can allow the plane to take on the Su-30MKI and Rafale from better position.

Hi,

If the Gripen NG can---then the JF BLK3 can too.

 

[Quwa]

The Japanese didn’t do that much - the F-2 came off the Agile Falcon program and then from there they started adding composites and other systems all under guidance from LM… which also led to the F-2 being a nightmare initially with cracks and everything - not to mention costs being 4 times a normal F-16.

IMO the F-2 largely suffered due to Japan's restrictions on exporting arms. The project amassed a large overhead and the JASDF couldn't order enough to make it economical.

In contrast, when South Korea worked with LM on the T-50/FA-50 and the KF-21, they went in with the plan to both manufacture many units for the ROKAF as well as widely export those systems. If Pakistan's ties with the US had not cooled, I think KAI would've pegged the PAF as a target customer for the KF-21.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

If the Gripen NG can---then the JF BLK3 can too.

As we discussed over the years, going for the RD-93 to based the JF-17 limited the potential of the design, such as ground clearance for munitions, for example.

Perhaps now is the best time to go for a slightly larger version, powered by the WS-10B.

 

[AsaRad1]

Ok people this is confirmed now. PFX is a new Fighter Jet program. Either it could be a Grippen E type thing or a close to 5th Generation fighter jet. But it's something new not upgrade of JF-17 BLOCK I and II. It would be officially inaugurated soon.

O bhai, bas kar de. I know what PFX is. It is just an indigenous version of Block 3 built locally.

It is not 5th generation.

 

[AsaRad1]

As we discussed over the years, going for the RD-93 to based the JF-17 limited the potential of the design, such as ground clearance for munitions, for example.

Perhaps now is the best time to go for a slightly larger version, powered by the WS-10B.

How does that make any logical sense when you can opt for what is essentially the same thing in the J-10C?

 

[FuturePAF]

How does that make any logical sense when you can opt for what is essentially the same thing in the J-10C?

The PAF probably thinks it can build the planes cheaper, all in house, I suppose.

 

[AsaRad1]

The PAF probably thinks it can build the planes cheaper, all in house, I suppose.

I meany your suggestion to redesign an entire new jet with the same power plant as the J-10C.

The Chinese are shutting down their production line so the PFX is basically a localised production line of the Block 3

 

[FuturePAF]

I meany your suggestion to redesign an entire new jet with the same power plant as the J-10C.

The Chinese are shutting down their production line so the PFX is basically a localised production line of the Block 3

It could just be fully localized production in Pakistan and that’s it, it could be improvements to integrate the new WS-19 engine when it matures and is ready to be integrated, or incorporation of a large engine.

Yes, it generally wouldn’t make sense to go for a larger engine when the J-10 is available and tested, and even integrated into the PAF fleet, but the engines aren’t that far off in size; half a meter longer and 250 mm wider, but potential for a lot more thrust.

This just maybe idle speculation and it’s more than likely just localized production with some design upgrades, akin to the Gripen NG, wiring for the 110-120 kn WS-19 to mature.

 

[.44 Magnum Lever Action]

PFX is probably the upgrade program to bring all block 1 and block 2 to block 3 standard.

 

[Jamie]

Hi,

Why did they have to enlarge it---for what reasons ---?

The same reason we bought J-10c’s for. Seeing the current state of the economy it becomes very difficult for PAF to keep buying more J-10’s.
Hence why not make JF-17 in the same class as that?
The enlarged JF-17 would be a very different fighter. Everything would have to be reworked pretty much.
From flight control systems to landing gear.
If PAF manages to make even a single test unit, it would vastly increase the knowledge base of PAC and in the future help it to take on more ambitious projects like fifth generation.
Localized Digital FBW, Flight controls, EW suit, Radar, Integrated Life Support System (ILSS), On-board Oxygen generator System (OBOGS), All the software and programming, Digital cockpit.
These localization’s would go a long way. I could however be wrong and PAF just be bringing rest of JF-17 manufacturing line with TOT.
But developing a new Fighter essentially like J-10c would not only increase RND and knowledge base but also help save valuable $ that would essentially be spent on big ticket items like Kaan or J-31 etc.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Hi,

Why did they have to enlarge it---for what reasons ---?

For air to ground and anti shipping role and to keep an aviation industry. They failed at making a decent replacement for F-1 so US stepped in to help, leveraging the agile falcon that had lost in the USAF competition. It gained more internal fuel, and additional hard points but became draggier.
Question is was it worth it? CFTs did the same for range later on for the F-16s which the F-2 lack. And did they need a larger F-16 that cost four times as much when they also operated F-15s?

 

[Zarvan]

I meany your suggestion to redesign an entire new jet with the same power plant as the J-10C.

The Chinese are shutting down their production line so the PFX is basically a localised production line of the Block 3

Pakistan won't be calling it JF17 PFX if it was complete local production of BLOCK III. We are already making many components of BLOCK III. We would just quietly shift other production areas to Pakistan and continue with it. Plus BLOCK III is already close to 50 in number. Soon it would reach the number we had planned to produce. So, how continuing with it makes sense to you.

 

[Indos]

IMO the F-2 largely suffered due to Japan's restrictions on exporting arms. The project amassed a large overhead and the JASDF couldn't order enough to make it economical.

In contrast, when South Korea worked with LM on the T-50/FA-50 and the KF-21, they went in with the plan to both manufacture many units for the ROKAF as well as widely export those systems. If Pakistan's ties with the US had not cooled, I think KAI would've pegged the PAF as a target customer for the KF-21.

Getting KF21 Korean version is unlikely for Pakistan. The most possibility is to get IFX Indonesia version with less US components but it still needs some time to be developed by Indonesian Aerospace with KF21 5th prototype as test bed plane and it still needs US/ Korean permission for Indonesia to export it to Pakistan. We dont have export license, but my speculation is that we could export IFX since Korea needs more KF21 sales to reduce KF21 price in order to be competitive in the market.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Pakistan won't be calling it JF17 PFX if it was complete local production of BLOCK III. We are already making many components of BLOCK III. We would just quietly shift other production areas to Pakistan and continue with it. Plus BLOCK III is already close to 50 in number. Soon it would reach the number we had planned to produce. So, how continuing with it makes sense to you.

I think you are reading "far more" into the "name" than is warranted. You are implying far more "intellectual thought" was given to what the name may convey than actually has been the case with the PAF. The key is that it is JF17 PFX - ergo - the same fighter and not a new one.. PFX is a localisation effort that looks to allow Pakistan to continue to build the jet when China closes down its manufacturing line, alongside the integration of more local and foreign(Turkish) systems into the plane.

I hope that the next edition of "Second to None" clarifies to all ..