PTI news, updates and discussions part ll

[Goenitz]

Subjugation day

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[flyingorca]

I also agree that East Pakistan should have been a separate country from the start. It could have been in a federation with us and this way we would have stayed ideologically and geopolitically aligned without any of the issues. But ham kya karay? Ye Fauj kisi ko nahi chorti. Becharay Bengalio ko maara bhi aur rape bhi kia. Unfortunate part of history.

Also, 1971 is by all means a loss. If India lost more planes and men by a factor of 1.5 or 2 it doesn't really matter because their ratio against us was more like 3 or 5 to 1 in most fields at the time. I think you know all of these things but you're just hammering out the posts to try and prove to us that the military is great and infallible, while Imran Khan is kaana dajaal.

If you have such great understanding of Pakistan history than us 'cultists' then we wish you and the army cultists all the best. Go be a fanboy in the military threads.

There is no way how east pakistan would have survived. It was inevitable to lose from Pakistan hand regardless how much you sugarcoat it. India had alot more influence on east Pakistan due to the fact it was next door neighbor, had similar culture, language etc thats why east pakistan fell for their game plan.

I am not sure if you understand my stance on 1971. I have repeatedly mentioned it was the darket part of our history and Army can not be solely blamed for the outcome simply due to the fact that you have also agreed with. I must agree that ego got on the way of army leadership and they should have just peacefully handed east Pak to Bangladeshi people. I was only debating from Military to Military war prospective.

This is a Pakistan military forum of course I am going to be their fanboy. If you want to be a nation loathing individual then stay in X or Instagram, you will find plent of these cultists to share your propaganda with. My biggest mistake in life was supporting IK few years back. You know why I call PTI supporters cultists? Because alot of them believe we are not independent nation yet they dont have problem with living in America that is supposedly incharge of Pakistan.

Btw can you please tell me why IK during his term repeatedly said that we must defend our Army no matter what and Gen Bajwa is the best pro democratic general then what transpired that all of sudden both army and him went against each other? Like what did he do that made Army against him all of sudden?

 

[Cipher212]

There is no way how east pakistan would have survived. It was inevitable to lose from Pakistan hand regardless how much you sugarcoat it. India had alot more influence on east Pakistan due to the fact it was next door neighbor, had similar culture, language etc thats why east pakistan fell for their game plan.

I am not sure if you understand my stance on 1971. I have repeatedly mentioned it was the darket part of our history and Army can not be solely blamed for the outcome simply due to the fact that you have also agreed with. I must agree that ego got on the way of army leadership and they should have just peacefully handed east Pak to Bangladeshi people. I was only debating from Military to Military war prospective.

This is a Pakistan military forum of course I am going to be their fanboy. If you want to be a nation loathing individual then stay in X or Instagram, you will find plent of these cultists to share your propaganda with. My biggest mistake in life was supporting IK few years back. You know why I call PTI supporters cultists? Because alot of them believe we are not independent nation yet they dont have problem with living in America that is supposedly incharge of Pakistan.

Btw can you please tell me why IK during his term repeatedly said that we must defend our Army no matter what and Gen Bajwa is the best pro democratic general then what transpired that all of sudden both army and him went against each other? Like what did he do that made Army against him all of sudden?

Its not about blaming Army for 1971. Bhutto is equal parts guilty but guess what? Bhutto bhi army ka paltu bacha tha, tou ghum phir kay......you know.

You're referring to when Imran Khan was sponsored by military. From 2010 to 2022 he was their boy. This is not some 'gotcha' thing anymore. We all always knew that. It was just a hope that maybe this 'same page' establishment hybrid regime would work. Obviously it didn't work. Hybrid regime is on its third iteration now with a different general and PM and it still doesn't work. We know that now and most PTI supporters who have sense want a purely civilian setup. We don't want this hybrid regime. Personally I believe that nothing good will ever come out of generals trying to be admnistrators and politicians. If it didn't work for the last 79 years why is this Munir going to be any different? Is he made of some different blood than Iskander/Ayub/Yahya/Zia/Musharaf?

If Imran Khan is earnest about that now we'll support him, because anytime he could have made deal with establishment to come back as a hybrid PM like Shahbaz is right now, and be free of jail but he's in there for 1000+ days now.

He used to say that because without Army there is no country. Obviously if there were no nuclear weapons, no J-10/JF-17/F-16s above, no ships, no tanks, no soldiers and no radars and SAMS. We'd be kaput by now. Any country of the world needs a military. Without it there is no safety.

We require a strong military capable of handling both Afghanistan and India now on both fronts. On top of that the military needs to be good at counter-insurgency too because 2 of our provinces are hotbed for that stuff. Even our daku's come out with RPGs and armoured cars.

But herein lies the issue, the same Army that we need badly for our security does way more than that. It meddles in politics and runs businesses. It runs the biggest housing society in Pakistan, it makes cereals, it even makes shitty dramay like "Ehd e Wafa" and that one movie with Neelum Munir. So that is mission creep of the worse kind.

Not only does it detract from the army's original purpose it weakens the other institutions by nature. If military takes over ruling the country then all your civil-political mechanisms die out. For example, student politics is banned since 1980s. There is no organic way for any new blood to come into the system.

Imran Khan only managed to do it in 90s because he was a huge superstar already, probably Pakistan's biggest personality. Other than that, puray 40 saalo me koi eik aur naya naam batao. There's not even one. All old zameendars and waderas. This is by DESIGN. The military needs this broiler chicken dynastic politicans because they're perfect for the hybrid regime. They don't ask many questions and don't stop out of line too often. They'll do anything for the kursi and the power/perks along with. No passion for actually developing the country.


And yeah, this is an army forum. But just like our military I find that this forum discusses politics FAR MORE than any actual military topic, like when is the bloody G3 going to be replaced? When are they getting helicopters in decent numbers?

Only the PAF threads seem to be active. I guess we all know which branch is the professional one....

 

[Watandar]

Its not about blaming Army for 1971. Bhutto is equal parts guilty but guess what? Bhutto bhi army ka paltu bacha tha, tou ghum phir kay......you know.

You're referring to when Imran Khan was sponsored by military. From 2010 to 2022 he was their boy. This is not some 'gotcha' thing anymore. We all always knew that. It was just a hope that maybe this 'same page' establishment hybrid regime would work. Obviously it didn't work. Hybrid regime is on its third iteration now with a different general and PM and it still doesn't work. We know that now and most PTI supporters who have sense want a purely civilian setup. We don't want this hybrid regime. Personally I believe that nothing good will ever come out of generals trying to be admnistrators and politicians. If it didn't work for the last 79 years why is this Munir going to be any different? Is he made of some different blood than Iskander/Ayub/Yahya/Zia/Musharaf?

If Imran Khan is earnest about that now we'll support him, because anytime he could have made deal with establishment to come back as a hybrid PM like Shahbaz is right now, and be free of jail but he's in there for 1000+ days now.

He used to say that because without Army there is no country. Obviously if there were no nuclear weapons, no J-10/JF-17/F-16s above, no ships, no tanks, no soldiers and no radars and SAMS. We'd be kaput by now. Any country of the world needs a military. Without it there is no safety.

We require a strong military capable of handling both Afghanistan and India now on both fronts. On top of that the military needs to be good at counter-insurgency too because 2 of our provinces are hotbed for that stuff. Even our daku's come out with RPGs and armoured cars.

But herein lies the issue, the same Army that we need badly for our security does way more than that. It meddles in politics and runs businesses. It runs the biggest housing society in Pakistan, it makes cereals, it even makes shitty dramay like "Ehd e Wafa" and that one movie with Neelum Munir. So that is mission creep of the worse kind.

Not only does it detract from the army's original purpose it weakens the other institutions by nature. If military takes over ruling the country then all your civil-political mechanisms die out. For example, student politics is banned since 1980s. There is no organic way for any new blood to come into the system.

Imran Khan only managed to do it in 90s because he was a huge superstar already, probably Pakistan's biggest personality. Other than that, puray 40 saalo me koi eik aur naya naam batao. There's not even one. All old zameendars and waderas. This is by DESIGN. The military needs this broiler chicken dynastic politicans because they're perfect for the hybrid regime. They don't ask many questions and don't stop out of line too often. They'll do anything for the kursi and the power/perks along with. No passion for actually developing the country.


And yeah, this is an army forum. But just like our military I find that this forum discusses politics FAR MORE than any actual military topic, like when is the bloody G3 going to be replaced? When are they getting helicopters in decent numbers?

Only the PAF threads seem to be active. I guess we all know which branch is the professional one....

Ehd e Wafa to bohot hee fazool drama tha. At least alpha bravo charlie aur sunere din nai propaganda ka kaam to kiya. The cast of Ehd e Wafa and the way they acted alone was repulsive.

 

[Maniiminhas]

BTW why don't we make dramas like Alpha Bravo Charlie anymore?

 

[flyingorca]

Its not about blaming Army for 1971. Bhutto is equal parts guilty but guess what? Bhutto bhi army ka paltu bacha tha, tou ghum phir kay......you know.

You're referring to when Imran Khan was sponsored by military. From 2010 to 2022 he was their boy. This is not some 'gotcha' thing anymore. We all always knew that. It was just a hope that maybe this 'same page' establishment hybrid regime would work. Obviously it didn't work. Hybrid regime is on its third iteration now with a different general and PM and it still doesn't work. We know that now and most PTI supporters who have sense want a purely civilian setup. We don't want this hybrid regime. Personally I believe that nothing good will ever come out of generals trying to be admnistrators and politicians. If it didn't work for the last 79 years why is this Munir going to be any different? Is he made of some different blood than Iskander/Ayub/Yahya/Zia/Musharaf?

If Imran Khan is earnest about that now we'll support him, because anytime he could have made deal with establishment to come back as a hybrid PM like Shahbaz is right now, and be free of jail but he's in there for 1000+ days now.

He used to say that because without Army there is no country. Obviously if there were no nuclear weapons, no J-10/JF-17/F-16s above, no ships, no tanks, no soldiers and no radars and SAMS. We'd be kaput by now. Any country of the world needs a military. Without it there is no safety.

We require a strong military capable of handling both Afghanistan and India now on both fronts. On top of that the military needs to be good at counter-insurgency too because 2 of our provinces are hotbed for that stuff. Even our daku's come out with RPGs and armoured cars.

But herein lies the issue, the same Army that we need badly for our security does way more than that. It meddles in politics and runs businesses. It runs the biggest housing society in Pakistan, it makes cereals, it even makes shitty dramay like "Ehd e Wafa" and that one movie with Neelum Munir. So that is mission creep of the worse kind.

Not only does it detract from the army's original purpose it weakens the other institutions by nature. If military takes over ruling the country then all your civil-political mechanisms die out. For example, student politics is banned since 1980s. There is no organic way for any new blood to come into the system.

Imran Khan only managed to do it in 90s because he was a huge superstar already, probably Pakistan's biggest personality. Other than that, puray 40 saalo me koi eik aur naya naam batao. There's not even one. All old zameendars and waderas. This is by DESIGN. The military needs this broiler chicken dynastic politicans because they're perfect for the hybrid regime. They don't ask many questions and don't stop out of line too often. They'll do anything for the kursi and the power/perks along with. No passion for actually developing the country.


And yeah, this is an army forum. But just like our military I find that this forum discusses politics FAR MORE than any actual military topic, like when is the bloody G3 going to be replaced? When are they getting helicopters in decent numbers?

Only the PAF threads seem to be active. I guess we all know which branch is the professional one....

This is exactly Army's dilemma, they raise these politicians and later they bite them in the 2ss. Imran Khan is the prime example. I will find Musharaf interview where he said IK used to beg him for 1 seat. He used to praise him and even agreed with his WOT policy at one point. He basically benefited from all those people he now calls corrupt and traitor. I must give credit where it is due, this guy knew how to move up the ranks like a snake.

By theory the civil government policy must be according to people's will. For sake of debate lets just agree somehow Fauj never interfered in politics but how do you handle so much internal and external issues? Lets just say majority of awam wants us to jump in Iran and Palestine conflict, do you join those war because the people say so? You are thinking of Pakistan in secular point of view, please understand the ground reality that majority of Pakistanis are Muslims and for them religion comes first. How do you even get majority votes to implement such secular policy? when your policies and decisions are not according to their interpretation of Islam and then whose interpretation is correct beacuse every group has their own. Good luck trying to win votes without using Islam. Thats why when Imran Khan was losing support during end of his term he started using Riyasat e Medina churan as a last resort to gain people's sympathy. He had absolutely no solution to internal and external issues. He just put a temporary lid on internal issues without a long term solution.

Munir has done wonders for Pakistan's foreign policy. Name me ONE PTI conspiracy theory that turned out true.
-Did Pakistan recognize Israel?
-Did Pakistan sent troops to Gaza to kill Palestinians on behalf of America and Israel?
- Did Pakistan sacrifice arm and leg to capture Bhagram base for US?
- Did pakistan provide intelligence and its bases to US against Iran?
He did exactly the opposite of what ever PTI cult accused him of.
Btw my focus was only his foreign policy, internal affairs is much more complex to address and will take alot of time...

Army does not trust that snake Imran Khan anymore no matter how much he begs. The only deal he is getting is a boot up his 2ss out of the country. And it will be hilarious if he picks US as his safe haven along with rest of PTI tiger warriors "jo kabhi amrika kay agay nahi jhukay thay."
Btw noway im zardari's supporter but that guy served 10 years in jail. Thats 3x more then Immi bahi.

Please dont be like Trump supporter who give total different interpretation of what their leader said. Imran Khan clearly said that we must defend our Army so much so that they come before me. Where did Jf17 J10 nukes come from in this debate? Do you not see how disrespectful these PTI supporters have become towards not just Munir but also fallen soldiers?

Our military? oh i see, yeah absolutely correct. They need public support instead of Afgano P0jeet insafian nexus propaganda because it seems like PA and now PAF gets dollars for killing innocent civilians right? So how do you expect them to finish the job?

Military should remain in politics until Pakistan becomes an Island and drifts off to Atlantic ocean where it does not get interrupted with external affairs every other decade.

Didnt Ehd e wafa aired during Immi bahi regime? Oh he also aired Urdu dubbed Ertugral to give "Islami touch" to Pakistani awam as part of his greater Riyasat e Medina plan.

I wish Imran Khan had stayed loyal to his masters because he has this great charming personality where he can say what ever nonsense and awam will just eat it up. Like the solution to poverty in Pakistan where everyone must start their chicken and egg business to get super rich. But I guess his ego got on his way.

To be fair aviation is the hottest topic in every military forum.

 

[flyingorca]

Ehd e Wafa to bohot hee fazool drama tha. At least alpha bravo charlie aur sunere din nai propaganda ka kaam to kiya. The cast of Ehd e Wafa and the way they acted alone was repulsive.

ABC mai kon sa propaganda dhek liya? Mujhay to ek romentic drama laga tha or Shenaz was my childhood crush.

 

[Truth Seeker]

This is exactly Army's dilemma, they raise these politicians and later they bite them in the 2ss. Imran Khan is the prime example. I will find Musharaf interview where he said IK used to beg him for 1 seat. He used to praise him and even agreed with his WOT policy at one point. He basically benefited from all those people he now calls corrupt and traitor. I must give credit where it is due, this guy knew how to move up the ranks like a snake.

By theory the civil government policy must be according to people's will. For sake of debate lets just agree somehow Fauj never interfered in politics but how do you handle so much internal and external issues? Lets just say majority of awam wants us to jump in Iran and Palestine conflict, do you join those war because the people say so? You are thinking of Pakistan in secular point of view, please understand the ground reality that majority of Pakistanis are Muslims and for them religion comes first. How do you even get majority votes to implement such secular policy? when your policies and decisions are not according to their interpretation of Islam and then whose interpretation is correct beacuse every group has their own. Good luck trying to win votes without using Islam. Thats why when Imran Khan was losing support during end of his term he started using Riyasat e Medina churan as a last resort to gain people's sympathy. He had absolutely no solution to internal and external issues. He just put a temporary lid on internal issues without a long term solution.

Munir has done wonders for Pakistan's foreign policy. Name me ONE PTI conspiracy theory that turned out true.
-Did Pakistan recognize Israel?
-Did Pakistan sent troops to Gaza to kill Palestinians on behalf of America and Israel?
- Did Pakistan sacrifice arm and leg to capture Bhagram base for US?
- Did pakistan provide intelligence and its bases to US against Iran?
He did exactly the opposite of what ever PTI cult accused him of.
Btw my focus was only his foreign policy, internal affairs is much more complex to address and will take alot of time...

Army does not trust that snake Imran Khan anymore no matter how much he begs. The only deal he is getting is a boot up his 2ss out of the country. And it will be hilarious if he picks US as his safe haven along with rest of PTI tiger warriors "jo kabhi amrika kay agay nahi jhukay thay."
Btw noway im zardari's supporter but that guy served 10 years in jail. Thats 3x more then Immi bahi.

Please dont be like Trump supporter who give total different interpretation of what their leader said. Imran Khan clearly said that we must defend our Army so much so that they come before me. Where did Jf17 J10 nukes come from in this debate? Do you not see how disrespectful these PTI supporters have become towards not just Munir but also fallen soldiers?

Our military? oh i see, yeah absolutely correct. They need public support instead of Afgano P0jeet insafian nexus propaganda because it seems like PA and now PAF gets dollars for killing innocent civilians right? So how do you expect them to finish the job?

Military should remain in politics until Pakistan becomes an Island and drifts off to Atlantic ocean where it does not get interrupted with external affairs every other decade.

Didnt Ehd e wafa aired during Immi bahi regime? Oh he also aired Urdu dubbed Ertugral to give "Islami touch" to Pakistani awam as part of his greater Riyasat e Medina plan.

I wish Imran Khan had stayed loyal to his masters because he has this great charming personality where he can say what ever nonsense and awam will just eat it up. Like the solution to poverty in Pakistan where everyone must start their chicken and egg business to get super rich. But I guess his ego got on his way.

To be fair aviation is the hottest topic in every military forum.

Atleast give actual elected civilian government full free hand for 10 years, than we can compare their performance with martial laws and hybrid regimes, otherwise all your points stay invalid. We have given almost years to military direct and indirect rule, and results are nothing to be proud of, so don't think bloody civilians can do any worse.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Cipher212]

ABC mai kon sa propaganda dhek liya? Mujhay to ek romentic drama laga tha or Shenaz was my childhood crush.

Thats exactly why it was good propaganda. It didn't let you realize.

 

[Cipher212]

This is exactly Army's dilemma, they raise these politicians and later they bite them in the 2ss. Imran Khan is the prime example. I will find Musharaf interview where he said IK used to beg him for 1 seat. He used to praise him and even agreed with his WOT policy at one point. He basically benefited from all those people he now calls corrupt and traitor. I must give credit where it is due, this guy knew how to move up the ranks like a snake.

By theory the civil government policy must be according to people's will. For sake of debate lets just agree somehow Fauj never interfered in politics but how do you handle so much internal and external issues? Lets just say majority of awam wants us to jump in Iran and Palestine conflict, do you join those war because the people say so? You are thinking of Pakistan in secular point of view, please understand the ground reality that majority of Pakistanis are Muslims and for them religion comes first. How do you even get majority votes to implement such secular policy? when your policies and decisions are not according to their interpretation of Islam and then whose interpretation is correct beacuse every group has their own. Good luck trying to win votes without using Islam. Thats why when Imran Khan was losing support during end of his term he started using Riyasat e Medina churan as a last resort to gain people's sympathy. He had absolutely no solution to internal and external issues. He just put a temporary lid on internal issues without a long term solution.

Munir has done wonders for Pakistan's foreign policy. Name me ONE PTI conspiracy theory that turned out true.
-Did Pakistan recognize Israel?
-Did Pakistan sent troops to Gaza to kill Palestinians on behalf of America and Israel?
- Did Pakistan sacrifice arm and leg to capture Bhagram base for US?
- Did pakistan provide intelligence and its bases to US against Iran?
He did exactly the opposite of what ever PTI cult accused him of.
Btw my focus was only his foreign policy, internal affairs is much more complex to address and will take alot of time...

Army does not trust that snake Imran Khan anymore no matter how much he begs. The only deal he is getting is a boot up his 2ss out of the country. And it will be hilarious if he picks US as his safe haven along with rest of PTI tiger warriors "jo kabhi amrika kay agay nahi jhukay thay."
Btw noway im zardari's supporter but that guy served 10 years in jail. Thats 3x more then Immi bahi.

Please dont be like Trump supporter who give total different interpretation of what their leader said. Imran Khan clearly said that we must defend our Army so much so that they come before me. Where did Jf17 J10 nukes come from in this debate? Do you not see how disrespectful these PTI supporters have become towards not just Munir but also fallen soldiers?

Our military? oh i see, yeah absolutely correct. They need public support instead of Afgano P0jeet insafian nexus propaganda because it seems like PA and now PAF gets dollars for killing innocent civilians right? So how do you expect them to finish the job?

Military should remain in politics until Pakistan becomes an Island and drifts off to Atlantic ocean where it does not get interrupted with external affairs every other decade.

Didnt Ehd e wafa aired during Immi bahi regime? Oh he also aired Urdu dubbed Ertugral to give "Islami touch" to Pakistani awam as part of his greater Riyasat e Medina plan.

I wish Imran Khan had stayed loyal to his masters because he has this great charming personality where he can say what ever nonsense and awam will just eat it up. Like the solution to poverty in Pakistan where everyone must start their chicken and egg business to get super rich. But I guess his ego got on his way.

To be fair aviation is the hottest topic in every military forum.

Munir's "wonders" are pure optics. We did not get any tangible benefits from any of that stuff. No new investments no deals that aren't MoUs. Nothing of the sort.

I'm not going to say it's bad foreign policy but it's just handshakes and smiles so far. We're not actually gaining anything from it. Economy statistics will show you that accurately. Pacts and MoUs don't bring in any money.

As for civilian government. This is a good example of army propaganda seeping into the minds of people. We have accepted in our minds that civilians will somehow ruin the country through bad policy.

Civilians can be every bit shrewd as the faujis are. Even with civilian government you'll have an "establishment" that will be taking more sensitive decisions. Like whether or not to join a war or start one. All civil operated countries have these safe guards so this is not a valid point.

As for IK not being a good slave and rebelling against the military that brought him in. Good for him. We did not come into this world to be in servitude to chaps who still like to dress up like their old colonial masters.

Army can also end this dilemna of people hating it by doing one simple thing (Faujeets hate this trick!!?l) that would be to go back to their damn barracks and let the civilians dictate policy. As per the Quaid's original orders. We've tried all hybrid regimes and dictatorships now. It doesn't work.