PAF J-10CE News Updates and Discussions part ll

[Oscar]

Is that because the Chinese view it as their top tier tech and China doesn't usually export their top tier stuff?

Its because the Sino-Flanker is forbidden through agreements with Russia for export.
Now, part of it also was modification but @Deino may know better as to how that was “allowed” while exports remain restricted.

Consider why over the nearly 20 years Sino-flankers have existed and nearly 10+ years they have been flying with domestic engines - they have never been once brought up for export to Pakistan. To the extent the PAF has evaluated Su-35 as a potential during recent thawing of relations but never the discussion. PAF pilots on exchange with PLAAF flew Su-30MKKs and even J-11Bs but never have sino-flankers come up even when desired for certain strike roles.

To the aspect that models of J-20 and J-31 surface at airshows but never the Sino-flanker for export.

That being said - even IF the sino-flankers were available for export - the price point for the aircraft would be fairly prohibitive to do anything at scale especially with how the aircraft have a greater signature exposure and operate best with depth.

 

[Pakistan First]

Jokes aside, I can see a legitimate use case for the J-16 in limited numbers, particularly for the PAF in long range strike and maritime support missions alongside the Pakistan Navy. That said, would China even be willing to export it, and could Russia create complications because of the aircraft’s Su-27 lineage and intellectual property history?

The bigger question is affordability. Pakistan’s economy is already under considerable pressure, while the PAF also wants to induct fifth generation fighters such as the J-35 and potentially KAAN. Would there realistically be enough money to acquire and sustain all these different platforms, along with their weapons, training, infrastructure, and maintenance requirements? Even if the J-16 is available, would introducing another small fleet be a wise investment, or would that money be better spent expanding and improving the J-10CE and JF-17 fleets?

Its completely out of question. Its not available for export at all. Even if it was, the cost is impossible to bear.

"Limited numbers" is what we get J-10C for.

Let's hope economy is revived to get more JF-17Cs. PAF still has to replace good for nothing F-7PGs and ancient mirages.

only the mirages would get deplated and they could essentailly be rebuild at karama.
besides are there more jf-17 still in production?

the f-7 are the more modern varient in service so part from retired stil there along with chinese assistance they will be fine.

Nope. Mirages atleast have a utility of dropping ALCMs. But F-7pgs don't have any utility left in modern air combat. They can't carry stand off missiles, can't do BVR, Can't be refueled in air. What you are going to do with an aircraft that has short range old generation air to air missiles, small range and no offensive role ?

 

[Deino]

Ever consuder j15 with ws15 engines , thick ram coating and full spectrum ew .... just an academic question

Will not happen since the J-15 itself is „old“ already …

 

[Ali_Baba]

Its completely out of question. Its not available for export at all. Even if it was, the cost is impossible to bear.

"Limited numbers" is what we get J-10C for.

Let's hope economy is revived to get more JF-17Cs. PAF still has to replace good for nothing F-7PGs and ancient mirages.



Nope. Mirages atleast have a utility of dropping ALCMs. But F-7pgs don't have any utility left in modern air combat. They can't carry stand off missiles, can't do BVR, Can't be refueled in air. What you are going to do with an aircraft that has short range old generation air to air missiles, small range and no offensive role ?

Yes - the F7PG's have no useful military value at any level now, not even pilot training given how obsolete the systems are on them. Pakistan needs to somehow marshal some resources to replace them ASAP.

 

[Trailer23]

Yes - the F7PG's have no useful military value at any level now, not even pilot training given how obsolete the systems are on them. Pakistan needs to somehow marshal some resources to replace them ASAP.

I sincerely hope all these "Services" we are providing outside Pakistan - pays well.

I think the funds for the Viper upgardes has been cleared, and doubt it was that big of an amount.

Question is what is more important to fund...

Another squadron or two of JF-Thunders or the remaining 16 J-10's that have eluded us for 4+ years now.

Not really certain how the whole replacement process works.

F-7's replaced by JF-17's.
Mirages replaced by J-10's

 

[KingQamaR]

I really, really want to know if these planes- the J16, F18 Super Hornet, the F15X , Euro Fighter Typhoon, and J10CE-could do a mock-up dogfight and which of the fighter would could up on top… I did not include Rafale its failed it’s duel with JC10C in real combat.

 

[Michael]

I really, really want to know if these planes- the J16, F18 Super Hornet, the F15X , Euro Fighter Typhoon, and J10CE-could do a mock-up dogfight and which of the fighter would could up on top… I did not include Rafale its failed it’s duel with JC10C in real combat.

M-16\AK-47\MP5\Barrett M82\QBZ-191............
Who is more powerful?

This is a very naive question!

A soldier armed with an assault rifle is killed by an enemy using a dagger in a duel. Does this mean we should consider a dagger more powerful than an assault rifle?

Modern advanced fighter jets, especially those from the 4.5th generation onwards, are designed with system-of-systems air combat in mind, rather than one-on-one duels. Comparing these fighter jets in isolation, without considering their overall system, is meaningless.

Remember, the protagonists of war are always "humans," not machines. Even with future robots and AI, the decision-making process will still be driven by humans.

 

[KingQamaR]

M-16\AK-47\MP5\Barrett M82\QBZ-191............
Who is more powerful?

This is a very naive question!

A soldier armed with an assault rifle is killed by an enemy using a dagger in a duel. Does this mean we should consider a dagger more powerful than an assault rifle?

Modern advanced fighter jets, especially those from the 4.5th generation onwards, are designed with system-of-systems air combat in mind, rather than one-on-one duels. Comparing these fighter jets in isolation, without considering their overall system, is meaningless.

Remember, the protagonists of war are always "humans," not machines. Even with future robots and AI, the decision-making process will still be driven by humans.

My point was, Is the J-10C overrated?
Before the Pak-India conflict, many opined that it was inferior.
Military experts reported Rafale is build with stealth features and had the best EWs suites against all its opponents and then got shot down, they were dumbfounded.

Is the J-16 overated?
Simple. Put it to a test like J-10C.
In a mock up fights with other class jets no harm in that.

 

[Pakistan First]

I really, really want to know if these planes- the J16, F18 Super Hornet, the F15X , Euro Fighter Typhoon, and J10CE-could do a mock-up dogfight and which of the fighter would could up on top… I did not include Rafale its failed it’s duel with JC10C in real combat.

My point was, Is the J-10C overrated?
Before the Pak-India conflict, many opined that it was inferior.
Military experts reported Rafale is build with stealth features and had the best EWs suites against all its opponents and then got shot down, they were dumbfounded.

Is the J-16 overated?
Simple. Put it to a test like J-10C.
In a mock up fights with other class jets no harm in that.

You specifically mentioned "dogfight" in your earlier post. Supposedly if JF-17 or F-16 wins a "dogfight" from J-16, it does not mean that J-16 is inferior. J-16 can most likely win in a BVR engagement. Dogfights will be extremely rare in modern combat.

The actual worth of a platform can never be determined in a single 1-1 dogfights or not even in 1-1 BVR engagement. Sometimes a platform is acting as a force multiplier, sometimes its acting as a single node for overall EW network.

Lastly, countries want to keep their capabilities confidential. So they can have an edge when real time comes. Especially when there is technological rivalry taking place in background of global domination. J-16s and F-15EXs will never do such a show off mockup fight.

Also when Rafales were shot down. Its not neccessarily that Rafales are inferior. Its whole setup of ours versus whole setup of enemy. Our situational awarenes, EW assets, network of air and ground sensors, comms, fighter jets, AWACs everything working as a team Versus the enemy setup. Plus most important the tactics & strategy of each side. So its never about one aircraft versus another. They don't fight in isolation in modern combat.

 

[rafale]

I sincerely hope all these "Services" we are providing outside Pakistan - pays well.

I think the funds for the Viper upgardes has been cleared, and doubt it was that big of an amount.

Question is what is more important to fund...

Another squadron or two of JF-Thunders or the remaining 16 J-10's that have eluded us for 4+ years now.

Not really certain how the whole replacement process works.

F-7's replaced by JF-17's.
Mirages replaced by J-10's

PAF won't go for immediate buying, unless India firms up its Rafale orders..........PAF will buy in response to what India buys.

 

[Trailer23]

PAF won't go for immediate buying, unless India firms up its Rafale orders..........PAF will buy in response to what India buys.

Bus sari zindagi India ka intizar kartay rahain.

Don't focus on replacing old Jets - that need to be replaced, just because we are waiting for India to place a firm order.

Look at India's track record when it comes to placing orders.

So we should continue to keep our 3rd Gen rust buckets in the Air, putting the lives of our Pilots in jeopardy just 'cause India hasn't placed a firm order.

Yaar, ye logic tou mujhay kabhe nahe samaj aey gi.

Every year they increase the Defence Budget, par Air Force wahnee kay wahnee hai - since we got those J-10c's in 2022.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

My point was, Is the J-10C overrated?
Before the Pak-India conflict, many opined that it was inferior.
Military experts reported Rafale is build with stealth features and had the best EWs suites against all its opponents and then got shot down, they were dumbfounded.

Is the J-16 overated?
Simple. Put it to a test like J-10C.
In a mock up fights with other class jets no harm in that.

My gut feelings is the PAF is deeply counting, as a potential parallel source, on its deep cooperation with the Turkish MIC with a NATO DNA. Since CCA by combining highly sophisticated manned jets (in less numbers) with numerous unmanned ones (that can be produced like bunnies) into active deoyment in a true multi-dimensional kill-web mode. The motto is: take no prisoners while killing and getting killed, and there's no tomorrow....

 

[Starlord]

Bus sari zindagi India ka intizar kartay rahain.

Don't focus on replacing old Jets - that need to be replaced, just because we are waiting for India to place a firm order.

Look at India's track record when it comes to placing orders.

So we should continue to keep our 3rd Gen rust buckets in the Air, putting the lives of our Pilots in jeopardy just 'cause India hasn't placed a firm order.

Yaar, ye logic tou mujhay kabhe nahe samaj aey gi.

Every year they increase the Defence Budget, par Air Force wahnee kay wahnee hai - since we got those J-10c's in 2022.

Not to mention 16 less JF-17's, we have send them to KSA. I don't know if we got anything from KSA in return for the agreement of sending a decent amount of forces or they put that into old khatta and said, Udhar ker lo.

 

[maxpane]

Not to mention 16 less JF-17's, we have send them to KSA. I don't know if we got anything from KSA in return for the agreement of sending a decent amount of forces or they put that into old khatta and said, Udhar ker lo.

16 jf 17 and 16 f 16s

 

[White Privilege]

Not to mention 16 less JF-17's, we have send them to KSA. I don't know if we got anything from KSA in return for the agreement of sending a decent amount of forces or they put that into old khatta and said, Udhar ker lo.

Those aircrews will never see any meaningful combat because of the geopolitical complexities, they are pretty much just chilling and enjoying camel roast.....