Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

[rafale]

Actually, if you look at how they have ALWAYS awarded kills in the past - that pattern matches exactly.

S-400s fired at targets including potential false returns/weather phenomenon = S-400s hit.
C-130 seen with fire (and it took debris damage) next to it = X-130 lost
Dome damaged at 1 radar from hard kill debris (unless @side-winder knows otherwise) = 4 radars lost

Where they did get actual damage in and exaggerated from there:
Sargodha Runway damages = yes - airfield operational = also yes.
Bholari - Hangar hit - aircraft damaged now in final repairs.
Murid = Hangar with tow trucks and 1 UAV = C2 center levelled.
Sukkur = UAE Hubara Bustard facilities hit = Frontline PAF base levelled.
J'bad maintenance hangar hit with 1 tow truck and 2 pigeons nesting in roof = F-16s lost

@Oscar I noticed you have mentioned weather phenomenon multiple times in the same context with S-400s.........why is this an issue?

I mean, a modern AD system would have radars capable enough to differentiate between weather phenomenon and actual returns, no? Especially the high GHz range they operate at?

 

[rafale]

Unless the economy improves, it's like scraping the bottom of the barrel.

The enemy is 10 times stronger In economy and have a 3 times stronger military.

We can hit every corner of the enemy's land but is that cost effective? Their land mass is huge, atleast 7 times bigger and we have a limited number of arsenal to throw at the enemy.

Assuming that our soldier is better 1.5- 2 times than the enemy, but their shear number can overwhelm us turning into a battle of attrition.

The focus should be on increasing the resources to fund military expansion as soon as possible but democracy is coming In between / hindering it.

The advantage we have today maynot last forever. So we should first secure the source of our water In Kashmir first.

Simla agreement should be thrown in the dust bin if the enemy will use it to take Pakistan's water away and make us dry, without firing a bullet.

The sooner we act and reclaim Kashmir, the better.

It has always been like that................................yet the enemy embarrassed itself each time.

 

[Yasser76]

@Oscar F-16s on hold due to PAF itself or on hold due to USA?

Talking of which, does anyone actually know what 19 Sqd does at Bolhari with the 13 odd F-16ADFs there? Scramble has it down as the official F-16 OCU but how do pilots go from this

ADF Cockpit




To this

Block 52 Cockpit

 

[TheThirdFaculty]

No - everything is available and shipped as needed.
However, its now Ex-Works as a figure of speech.

What is important is that what the PAF asked for in the past can be made available but the delivery timeline along with mixed situation in US government - along with frankly mostly equivalent systems available from China(and potentially Turkey soon) is making PAF hedge its limited funds.

In years gone by you’ve had a soft spot for the US and I can’t understand why ?
Isn’t withholding the bulk of our F16 order and mothballing it in the Navada dessert only to compensate us for soya beans enough reason to see who they really are. Moments after the “cease fire” trump was rearming India there were literal rows of c17s parked on the tarmacs of the enemy .
The F-solahs are a liability yaara. We can’t really be too adventurous with it without getting a slap on the wrist.

 

[PK781]

is usa still holding the parts of f 16s? if its true then we should move away from f 16s.

Time to go full on with J10C or even European and kick the unnecessary american personnel out from Islamabad and all PAF bases.

Buy Airbus planes and ditch the Boeings in PIA too, stop giving them business.

 

[rafale]

Talking of which, does anyone actually know what 19 Sqd does at Bolhari with the 13 odd F-16ADFs there? Scramble has it down as the official F-16 OCU but how do pilots go from this

ADF Cockpit

View attachment 213165


To this

Block 52 Cockpit

View attachment 213166

I think the ADFs were purchased in a hurry because they were easily available and provided valuable flight time to pilots.

I doubt they were intended for full combat use as the tip of the spear, more like last resort options for spares.....very similar to what PAF did with second hand Mirage procurements.

Conversion from BLK15 to BLK52 updated lots of avionics parts, but lots of other functional, mechanical parts remained same. Meaning ADF could provide useful spares if needed.

 

[Yasser76]

Time to go full on with J10C or even European and kick the unnecessary american personnel out from Islamabad and all PAF bases.

Buy Airbus planes and ditch the Boeings in PIA too, stop giving them business.

I disagree to an extent, if it does not hurt defence preparedness no harm in giving Trump some wins like Boeing orders. America will never be an ally but not worth pushing them away.

But yeah, we need to go all in with J-10C/J-35, Chinese tech is matching European/US tech right now, 10 years from now I really cannot see one area in conventional military tech China will have surpassed everyone in. I am talking things we cannot even imagine now

Extreme stealth, ultra long range hyper efficient fighter engines, lasers light enough but powerful enough to fit on fighters, true optional manning, Ultra long range air to air missiles (1,000km plus). Buck Rogers shit.

PAF may not get the very cutting edge of that, but even by then J-36 and J-20 may well be considered 2nd line.

 

[Yasser76]

In years gone by you’ve had a soft spot for the US and I can’t understand why ?
Isn’t withholding the bulk of our F16 order and mothballing it in the Navada dessert only to compensate us for soya beans enough reason to see who they really are. Moments after the “cease fire” trump was rearming India there were literal rows of c17s parked on the tarmacs of the enemy .
The F-solahs are a liability yaara. We can’t really be too adventurous with it without getting a slap on the wrist.

Easy, you want to lose 25% of our combat force because America treated us badly in the past, if everyone did that there would be no F-16s flying anywhere.F-16s are here to stay, they will be 2nd line for sure, but still more potent then the Mirages and F-7PGs

 

[Yasser76]

I think the ADFs were purchased in a hurry because they were easily available and provided valuable flight time to pilots.

I doubt they were intended for full combat use as the tip of the spear, more like last resort options for spares.....very similar to what PAF did with second hand Mirage procurements.

Conversion from BLK15 to BLK52 updated lots of avionics parts, but lots of other functional, mechanical parts remained same. Meaning ADF could provide useful spares if needed.

I dont think spares were the motivation to buy them, but as you say, seems like a rushed order. They have no commonality with the 45 MLUs and 18 Block 52S.

My guestion was more around going from a 1980s cockpits to a very modern one and of course the radar/missile combo is lacking on them too. Unsure how well they are suited for OCU. Better off just using them to guard Afghan/Iran border

 

[maxpane]

Time to go full on with J10C or even European and kick the unnecessary american personnel out from Islamabad and all PAF bases.

Buy Airbus planes and ditch the Boeings in PIA too, stop giving them business.

i think thtas what Oscar was saying.
there will be no upgradation of f16s cuz it will take time and paf wnt spend dime on them. we should go for kizilema kaan j 35 and more j 10s instead of f 16s

 

[TheThirdFaculty]

Easy, you want to lose 25% of our combat force because America treated us badly in the past, if everyone did that there would be no F-16s flying anywhere.F-16s are here to stay, they will be 2nd line for sure, but still more potent then the Mirages and F-7PG

Easy, you want to lose 25% of our combat force because America treated us badly in the past, if everyone did that there would be no F-16s flying anywhere.F-16s are here to stay, they will be 2nd line for sure, but still more potent then the Mirages and F-7PGs

What’s the point buying a car when you can’t push the accelerator all the way down you can go max 50 when it’s capable of so much more . It’s a liability even with upgrades.

 

[maxpane]

Use f 16 on western border without upgradation . Replace mirages and f 7 with 35 and j 10s and buy a lift aircraft for training. For future buy kizllillema and kaan and replace old thunders by pfx

 

[Yasser76]

What’s the point buying a car when you can’t push the accelerator all the way down you can go max 50 when it’s capable of so much more . It’s a liability even with upgrades.

Not in the South Asian context, it out performs 90% of the IAF fleet with the APG-68/AIM-120C5 combo.

If we retire them what would you suggest as an immediate alternative that would not break the bank?

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Extreme stealth, ultra long range hyper efficient fighter engines, lasers light enough but powerful enough to fit on fighters, true optional manning, Ultra long range air to air missiles (1,000km plus). Buck Rogers shit

variable cycle engines will be few years away for J-36/J-50 most probably they will come after 2032-35, and Lasers is for defense for your jet rather than offensive weapons like disabling opponent air to air missiles at short ranges/electronic countermeasures and ECCM purpose (unfortunately lasers could not work very well at long and medium ranges)
And as for 1000 km+ BVRs are also not Feasible in near future because of curvature of Earth which is limited by radar range all fighter jets including 5th and upcoming 6th gen jets radar ranges are limited by earth this physical parameter/barrier, and at 400 km fighter jets are only able to detect, for tracking and engagements targets needs to become much closer, I know some AWACS are capable to detect targets over 600 km like E-2D but it can detect BOMBERS/tankers and other big RCS slow moving ISR targets at this range (I only say they can only detect not attack those targets at 600 km) and also they uses UHF (Short range radio waves) bands to detect those targets at 600 km range which insufficient for engaging/ tracking, if you want to engage fighter jets or other big targets you needs X band which has much shorter range than UHF band like 200/250/300 km, so assuming that China will built 1000 km+ BVR in near future is wishful thinking

 

[Yasser76]

variable cycle engines will be few years away for J-36/J-50 most probably they will come after 2032-35, and Lasers is for defense for your jet rather than offensive weapons like disabling opponent air to air missiles at short ranges/electronic countermeasures and ECCM purpose (unfortunately lasers could not work very well at long and medium ranges)
And as for 1000 km+ BVRs are also not Feasible in near future because of curvature of Earth which is limited by radar range all fighter jets including 5th and upcoming 6th gen jets radar ranges are limited by earth this physical parameter/barrier, and at 400 km fighter jets are only able to detect, for tracking and engagements targets needs to become much closer, I know some AWACS are capable to detect targets over 600 km like E-2D but it can detect BOMBERS/tankers and other big RCS slow moving ISR targets at this range (I only say they can only detect not attack those targets at 600 km) and also they uses UHF (Short range radio waves) bands to detect those targets at 600 km range which insufficient for engaging/ tracking, if you want to engage fighter jets or other big targets you needs X band which has much shorter range than UHF band like 200/250/300 km, so assuming that China will built 1000 km+ BVR in near future is wishful thinking

I was exaggerating a tad to make a point, China will surpass the US. US is already working on 1,000km missiles for air to air, I think in 10 years China will bypass them in every sphere by the way the current pace of development os going