The Case for Pakistan as a Civilizational State

[ThunderCat]

Historians and linguists are politically aligned. The evidence of Urdu being a camp language outweighs the notion that it was not.

Farsi - language of the Mughal Court
Urdu - language of the Mughal army

the article he linked argue otherwise. And "urdu" was a name coined by a poet in 1780s. Hardly 350 years in contrast to almost 1000 years of history of this language, beginning in late 1020s.

You are circulating myths that it's a "mixed language." It's an Indo-Aryan language that merely incorporates words from other languages, much like any other language.

It was not formed during the Mughal period.

 

[Master Chief]

it is one of the bars for historians

No it isn't. The script of a civilisation does not need to be deciphered in order to confirm the civilisational status. Plenty of confirmed civilisations existed without deciphered script.

 

[Master Chief]

Let me rephrase
Arabian peninsula has never been colonized by an European power

No I won't let you rephrase. Stick to your guns ma nigga. Double down on that.

 

[nahtanbob]

No it isn't. The script of a civilisation does not need to be deciphered in order to confirm the civilisational status. Plenty of confirmed civilisations existed without deciphered script.

confirmed civilizations worth discussing have some kind of historic continuity

 

[ThunderCat]

confirmed civilizations worth discussing have some kind of historic continuity

I guess now modern Egyptians need to be able to read ancient Egyptian to prove their heritage.

Bharati trolls and their funny fallacies.

 

[ThunderCat]

Pakistan did not capitalize on this and instead made claim on every invading force that for the most part plundered and looted the locals of this land.

You mean Islamic empires. Pakistanis would probably almost never claim the Sikh Empire let alone the British Empire.

 

[r3alist]

Look at the arguments here.......... someone is reading threads here


@Master Chief @clutch @hussain0216 @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakistanLVR







Note how they rely on their historical failures as a type of WOKE / dei argument, that it's historically due as compensation.... not belonging to them


The rig veda is NOT very Hindu tbh look how it's claimed, slimey deception relying on ignorance

hence creating separation to amorphous Hinduism should be looked at


Any Hindu claims the indus, this is explicitly said

Essentially the most articulate argument is uttered through gritted teeth and a forced smile..... It's pre islamic, it's kind of linked to associated Hindu deities so it's ours, the location and continuity of the people is incidental....

 

[Master Chief]

Look at the arguments here.......... someone is reading threads here


@Master Chief @clutch @hussain0216 @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakistanLVR







Note how they rely on their historical failures as a type of WOKE / dei argument, that it's historically due as compensation.... not belonging to them


The rig veda is NOT very Hindu tbh look how it's claimed, slimey deception relying on ignorance

hence creating separation to amorphous Hinduism should be looked at


Any Hindu claims the indus, this is explicitly said

Essentially the most articulate argument is uttered through gritted teeth and a forced smile..... It's pre islamic, it's kind of linked to associated Hindu deities so it's ours, the location and continuity of the people is incidental....

Another clown. You're right - could almost be one of our own Indian guests on this very forum.

Doesn't matter that the Indus was named after anything in the Vedas. Doesn't matter that the inhabitants are now monotheistic.

If either of these did matter, druids and shamans could lay claim to Britain immediately and drive out all white Christian anglo-saxons from that land. In fact, we are more native to Pakistan than anglo-saxons are to Britain.

 

[El Sidd]

the article he linked argue otherwise. And "urdu" was a name coined by a poet in 1780s. Hardly 350 years in contrast to almost 1000 years of history of this language, beginning in late 1020s.

You are circulating myths that it's a "mixed language." It's an Indo-Aryan language that merely incorporates words from other languages, much like any other language.

It was not formed during the Mughal period.

There's no evidence of any such language being spoken in a codified manner prior to the Mughal era.

 

[Master Chief]

Look at the arguments here.......... someone is reading threads here


@Master Chief @clutch @hussain0216 @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakistanLVR







Note how they rely on their historical failures as a type of WOKE / dei argument, that it's historically due as compensation.... not belonging to them


The rig veda is NOT very Hindu tbh look how it's claimed, slimey deception relying on ignorance

hence creating separation to amorphous Hinduism should be looked at


Any Hindu claims the indus, this is explicitly said

Essentially the most articulate argument is uttered through gritted teeth and a forced smile..... It's pre islamic, it's kind of linked to associated Hindu deities so it's ours, the location and continuity of the people is incidental....

4:00

Ask uncle dhalsim WHO named his people "hindu"? Who named his mythical realm "hindustan"?

Was this the name granted from the vedas or did someone else suggest this name on the basis of the single river flowing there? His nation's founders chose their name poorly in 1947 on the basis of someone else's land (those who lived in Pakistan were equally native to their land as Bharatis were to theirs). It is not Pakistan's fault that the name "India" was chosen for Bharati lands, and as such, we don't care for their crying now.

 

[RealNapster]

This means Pakistan can simultaneously claim:

Mehrgarh.
The Indus civilization.
Gandhara.
Taxila.
Buddhist heritage.
Persianate heritage.
Islamic civilization.
Sufi traditions.
The Mughal inheritance.
Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashtun, Baloch and other regional cultures.

There is no contradiction.

Well it is a very slippery slope. If I have to consider Indus civilization as our own then we would also have to accept that Indians are branch of that and are hence one of us. I am not sure Pakistanis are ready for that. Atleast with recent political landscape.

Majority well known sufis were from foreign lands bukhara, samarkand, tashkand. Not local. Buddhists also originated from Bihar in India and then spread to sub-continent. So india have a bigger claim (or do you consider Pakistan as part of India? )

Mughals were also not from the soil of Pakistan. Majority Pashtun kingdoms originated in Kandahar, and other parts of Aghanistan.

I am not sure man. If you ask me , I consider Pakistan as one of the legitimate child of those civilizations but not its sole lineage.

That being said, and with utmost sadness, I would want to add to this that Pakistan is hardly managing its survival as a country, let alone the remanence of multiple civilization.

BTW I am not an expert on these civilizations , just giving my opinion.

 

[r3alist]

If either of these did matter, druids and shamans could lay claim to Britain immediately and drive out all white Christian anglo-saxons from that land. In fact, we are more native to Pakistan than anglo-saxons are to Britain.

Exxxxxactly my friend, giving them waaaaay too much respect by taking an academic sort of route..... Cos they ain't doing that, they discovered it same time as everyone else so it's all a distraction and diversion and abstraction that KEEPS THEM RELEVANT, not saying it's not relevant but they are not here to be good faith participants


What about the Romans, they became catholic so Zeus belongs to India too


The rebuttal is ......cut down emotive religious arguments, deny communal politics,deny religions owning history conceptually , explain that if you don't care for archaeology get out the debate, I reckon that's it.

Let's get to the crux...... The Indian angst is the national boost, depth and texture Pakistani will get to their identity.... Pakistan Not just a new nation, but a people who have gone through journeys and evolution and still there, and have the artefacts to prove it.

Which India does not

 

[r3alist]

4:00

Ask uncle dhalsim WHO named his people "hindu"? Who named his mythical realm "hindustan"?

Was this the name granted from the vedas or did someone else suggest this name on the basis of the single river flowing there? His nation's founders chose their name poorly in 1947 on the basis of someone else's land (those who lived in Pakistan were equally native to their land as Bharatis were to theirs). It is not Pakistan's fault that the name "India" was chosen for Bharati lands, and as such, we don't care for their crying now.

He is relying on ignorance of audience and getting away with historical distortion.


Through tears and gritted teeth he is only saying it's Hindu we really really want to claim it



Religions claim territories and people as they please ...for him


Lets flip the contemporary argument used ..... Why is a Hindu trying to control what Muslims do and think , why is he so entitled

 

[Master Chief]

Look at the arguments here.......... someone is reading threads here


@Master Chief @clutch @hussain0216 @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakistanLVR







Note how they rely on their historical failures as a type of WOKE / dei argument, that it's historically due as compensation.... not belonging to them


The rig veda is NOT very Hindu tbh look how it's claimed, slimey deception relying on ignorance

hence creating separation to amorphous Hinduism should be looked at


Any Hindu claims the indus, this is explicitly said

Essentially the most articulate argument is uttered through gritted teeth and a forced smile..... It's pre islamic, it's kind of linked to associated Hindu deities so it's ours, the location and continuity of the people is incidental....

9:00 onwards, uncle has lost it.

"Taxila", "Panini", "Chanakiya" - are Pakistani by default. This is simple geography. No independent, unified "India" existed that covered Pakistani lands at any time in history. If he is subtly pushing the Mauryan Empire onto us, how exactly did the Mauryans unify their empire? Was it possibly by the same sword that this moron curses out Mughals and British for in this same video?

If he accepts forcible imperial unification by Grandfather Maurya, (thus bringing Indus lands - briefly - under control of a centralised empire, whose capital was thousands of miles away btw), then he can hardly complain when anyone else brings Indus lands under their yoke.

Amateurish pseudo-historical ranting, as is their wont.

 

[r3alist]

9:00 onwards, uncle has lost it.

"Taxila", "Panini", "Chanakiya" - are Pakistani by default. This is simple geography. No independent, unified "India" existed that covered Pakistani lands at any time in history. If he is subtly pushing the Mauryan Empire onto us, how exactly did the Mauryans unify their empire? Was it possibly by the same sword that this moron curses out Mughals and British for in this same video?

If he accepts forcible imperial unification by Grandfather Maurya, (thus bringing Indus lands - briefly - under control of a centralised empire, whose capital was thousands of miles away btw), then he can hardly complain when anyone else brings Indus lands under their yoke.

Amateurish pseudo-historical ranting, as is their wont.

If Imperial borders are an issue then Indias borders are also an issue and Pakistan wanted more land, ergo more ivc archaeological sites


This guy is anti woke anti dei when it comes to African descent people

The simple consistent rebuttal is as follows, this is archaeology not communal politics inserted into archaeology

If that's the game for you, get out the discussion , you are in bad faith and poisoning the academic pursuit

Not much more to say to these guys, the more you say sometimes the more rope they grab