Su 57 deal on the agenda for Modi Putin Meet

[kmc_chacko]

If we give a big enough Rafale order, production rate can be increased.

42 squadron was calculated long ago. War fighting has changed since then. Maybe they are no longer needed. Ukraine - Russia has seen very little use of air force. Iran is keeping the USA at bay without an air force, though the cost has been high.

Air Force is not going anywhere, if that was the case US & China would have stopped inducting 4+ Gen fighters long ago, US is still inducting F-15&F-18, China J-16 & Russia Su-35.

 

[Shui]

Air Force is not going anywhere, if that was the case US & China would have stopped inducting 4+ Gen fighters long ago, US is still inducting F-15&F-18, China J-16 & Russia Su-35.

I have seen countless Indian defence accs trying to justified rafael purchase, tedbf project with China still inducting J-16, but nope, the J-16 production has already halted and shift to J-35, only EW varient J-16D, naval J-15/D are still in production, which the number is nothing compared with current J-20A and J-35 production.

 

[Master Chief]

So, PAF will try hit and run tactics, whereas IAF will target priority targets, due to this both end will try to keep war at limited time and both can claim victory.

Any evidence whatsoever for "hit and run" tactics from either Swift Retort or Bunyaan um Marsoos?

Genuinely curious as to how either the clinical shooting down of a panicked Mig 21 or the cold and calculated springing of a BVR ambush against 7 IAF jets can be called "hit and run"?

 

[RealNapster]

This is what we call "apna thooka hua wapas chaatna".

First leave the project and then try to join again after 7-8 more years.

 

[Deino]

Modi should make a deal now for the Su 57. This is the right time. The Russians are very willing. Talking abt tech transder of even the S 500. We should start manufacruring in HAL's Nashik facility immediately. Target abt 400 Su 57 in the next 9 years until AMCA production begins.

My reasoning for buying Su-57 is, preset IAF future plans like below
1. Tejas Mk1 will fill in the place of retired Migs (12 sq) timeline 2027-35
2. Rafale will take-up the rolls & place of Mig-29s & Mirage (8 sq) timeline 2028-40
3. Tejas Mk2 and later will replace Jaguar and will be backbone of IAF (20+ sq) timeline 2029-45
4. AMCA will be in small quantity and replace Tejas-Mk1 & Su-30s (12 sq) timeline 2040-50
above will make upto 38-40 sq but minimal requirement is 42 squadrons

though on paper it looks like IAF will have 40 sq by 2040 but AMCA is just on drawing board and not reality, Tejas Mk2 yet to fly and if everything goes as planned its delivery schedule might starts by 2030-35.

by 2035-40 initially inducted Su-30s will be at the end of its life (i.e., 30+ years of induction) and this leaves out need of 8-10 sq of Fighter Jets. options available Infront of IAF are either buy Su-57s (available) or F-35 (buying will be irresponsible) or order more Rafale but issue is delivery of present order will start only by 2028-30 and scheduled upto 2040-45.

But your reasoning on anything in regard to the IAF's future acquisition is irrelevant, these are at best wet-dreams!

1. Tejas Mk.1/1a will surely come but it is now too late, it is simply not capable enough, as the IAF no longer needs a MiG-21 successor.
2. & 3. yes, sounds great, but the Rafale until 2040s! Come on ... yes, capable as it is but for the 2030s-2040 against a true adversary it's too late. And the same with the Tejas Mk.2
4. IF, IF, and this "IF" grows with each repetition. The point is, if India doesn't finally start truly investing, working, and changing its structures (like we in Germany should do), nothing will change, it will fizzle out, and even in 2049 fanboys will still be promising that AMCA "will be whatever, but surely the best 5th generation type ever!"

As such, on paper it is a nightmare against any Indian aspirations and even more so compared to the Indian self-image! Wake up already, otherwise nothing will change, except that India will continue to be taken lightly and financially exploited.

And as for Russia, that old man can barely manage his own unsteady gait. Do you really believe—especially since the IAF has rejected the Su-57 again—that you can achieve a) licensed production, b) technology transfer, and c) sufficient production numbers in a timely manner? NEVER!

 

[lightoftruth]

problem is maintaining 45+ sq and without long term Su-30 replacement planning achieving required strength will be difficult.

By 2040 IAF will have to virtually replace its entire present jets. Tejas, Rafael & AMCA might make upto 500+ and still it will short of 200+ jets i.e, Su-30 place will be vacant.

Drones will make up the number but not the balance.

SU 57 is not happening , these are just chatter starter from Russia.

Air Force is not so keen on SU 57, it has failed to deliver in ukraine.

Full thrust is on AMCA along with Unmanned platforms under dense air defense.

5 more S 400 is on cards plus R37 M for SU 30 MKI , discussion is on upgrades ,that is Super Sukhoi.

 

[Yasser76]

@Deino , @Yasser76 - please be seated when you read the expectations and timelines on this work of "art ..".

No, its OK in PAF

by 2028 "hopefully" and "possibly" we will have

8 Squadrons of F-47 replacing our F-16s and 8 squadrons of J-36 replacing JF-17 and J-10C.

This "might" happen so all is good with PAF saar.

 

[Yasser76]

Any evidence whatsoever for "hit and run" tactics from either Swift Retort or Bunyaan um Marsoos?

Genuinely curious as to how either the clinical shooting down of a panicked Mig 21 or the cold and calculated springing of a BVR ambush against 7 IAF jets can be called "hit and run"?

We did the hitting, they did the running....

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

But your reasoning on anything in regard to the IAF's future acquisition is irrelevant, these are at best wet-dreams!

1. Tejas Mk.1/1a will surely come but it is now too late, it is simply not capable enough, as the IAF no longer needs a MiG-21 successor.
2. & 3. yes, sounds great, but the Rafale until 2040s! Come on ... yes, capable as it is but for the 2030s-2040 against a true adversary it's too late. And the same with the Tejas Mk.2
4. IF, IF, and this "IF" grows with each repetition. The point is, if India doesn't finally start truly investing, working, and changing its structures (like we in Germany should do), nothing will change, it will fizzle out, and even in 2049 fanboys will still be promising that AMCA "will be whatever, but surely the best 5th generation type ever!"

As such, on paper it is a nightmare against any Indian aspirations and even more so compared to the Indian self-image! Wake up already, otherwise nothing will change, except that India will continue to be taken lightly and financially exploited.

And as for Russia, that old man can barely manage his own unsteady gait. Do you really believe—especially since the IAF has rejected the Su-57 again—that you can achieve a) licensed production, b) technology transfer, and c) sufficient production numbers in a timely manner? NEVER!

I agree with the broader point that simply saying “AMCA will come” or “Tejas Mk.2 will come” is not enough. If these programmes keep getting delayed, then by the time they actually enter meaningful numbers, the threat environment will have moved much further ahead.

But I would not completely dismiss India’s future acquisitions as “wet dreams.” The real issue is execution, timelines, production capacity and decision-making—not the lack of capability on paper.

Tejas Mk.1/1A is already coming, and yes, with the changing world and technology, it can still be useful as a point-defence fighter. India needs such lightweight, single-engine aircraft because cost matters when you need to build numbers.

Rafale is highly capable, but buying a limited number of Rafales cannot by itself solve India’s fighter-strength problem. So for the future, the only real solution is local design, building and manufacturing of aircraft. If you are importing or even manufacturing an OEM-designed aircraft under licence, there will always be limitations.
Since 4th-generation fighters are not going anywhere before 2050, Tejas Mk.2 should remain relevant for the next two decades, along with upgraded Su-30MKI and Rafale, even if Tejas Mk.2 induction only really starts around 2030.
That is also the reason why, personally, I support buying 72+ Su-57s with customization—but only as a stop-gap measure.

What I would never want to hear after Rafale 110 and Su-57 aircraft are acquired is that India is again planning to buy another fighter from a foreign country. The only possible exception could be a 6th-generation fighter being developed internationally.

But after 2030, India should not be importing any new fighter aircraft. . India needs that breathing space and time to develop its own capabilities and this present decade must be enough to strength its aerospace industry and finally become capable of designing and manufacturing the fighters it needs itself after 2030....

India does not have any option left now.

Also, when people criticize India for not doing well enough, I think the expectation behind that criticism is actually that India should do better—like China—and start building and manufacturing its own aircraft and technologies. Otherwise, many countries are either simply manufacturing OEM products under licence and remaining totally dependent on the original manufacturer, or directly importing their aircraft. People don't question their capabilities in the same way because they don't have the same expectations from them

 

[Deino]

I agree with the broader point that simply saying “AMCA will come” or “Tejas Mk.2 will come” is not enough. If these programmes keep getting delayed, then by the time they actually enter meaningful numbers, the threat environment will have moved much further ahead.

But I would not completely dismiss India’s future acquisitions as “wet dreams.” The real issue is execution, timelines, production capacity and decision-making—not the lack of capability on paper.

Tejas Mk.1/1A is already coming, and yes, with the changing world and technology, it can still be useful as a point-defence fighter. India needs such lightweight, single-engine aircraft because cost matters when you need to build numbers.

Rafale is highly capable, but buying a limited number of Rafales cannot by itself solve India’s fighter-strength problem. So for the future, the only real solution is local design, building and manufacturing of aircraft. If you are importing or even manufacturing an OEM-designed aircraft under licence, there will always be limitations.
Since 4th-generation fighters are not going anywhere before 2050, Tejas Mk.2 should remain relevant for the next two decades, along with upgraded Su-30MKI and Rafale, even if Tejas Mk.2 induction only really starts around 2030.
That is also the reason why, personally, I support buying 72+ Su-57s with customization—but only as a stop-gap measure.

What I would never want to hear after Rafale 110 and Su-57 aircraft are acquired is that India is again planning to buy another fighter from a foreign country. The only possible exception could be a 6th-generation fighter being developed internationally.

But after 2030, India should not be importing any new fighter aircraft. . India needs that breathing space and time to develop its own capabilities and this present decade must be enough to strength its aerospace industry and finally become capable of designing and manufacturing the fighters it needs itself after 2030....

India does not have any option left now.

Also, when people criticize India for not doing well enough, I think the expectation behind that criticism is actually that India should do better—like China—and start building and manufacturing its own aircraft and technologies. Otherwise, many countries are either simply manufacturing OEM products under licence and remaining totally dependent on the original manufacturer, or directly importing their aircraft. People don't question their capabilities in the same way because they don't have the same expectations from them

I totally agree!