The Case for Pakistan as a Civilizational State

[vasanthm]

@Master Chief genetic markers is the hard evidence North Western region of the subcontinent belongs to Indus/Pakistan.

hinduvita revisionism is a cope for Indians.

So shared ancestry means ownership now? I bet Persia and Arabia belong to Pakistan too

 

[Master Chief]

So where do you think Hindu beliefs and culture developed? Persia, Arabia or Russia?

Ppl here just argued that later Indian traditions absorbed a Harappan deity. Now apparently that transmission counts for nothing, but sharing ancestry and eating beef establishes Pakistan’s continuity?

Nobody said continuity means everything stayed unchanged. Why does India need identical beliefs while Pakistan gets by with a DNA chart?

Why does it matter where they "developed", by which you mean "matured into vedic hinduism"? They originally came from a people who travelled here from afar, probably after the collapse of the IVC (as we can infer from the Rakhigiri study, Shinde).

Even Islamic jurisprudence has its own uniquely South Asian schools of interpretative thought.

Vedic Hinduism is as "foreign" to South Asia as Islam is. Arabised/Persianised script is as "foreign" to South Asia as Sanskrit is.

Urdu, Pakistan's national language, was created from Arab/Persian script in Delhi (though some here argue it was elsewhere in South Asia, no matter, still a LOCAL creation).

What is India's national language? Let alone Sanskrit, half of your nation regards ENGLISH as your unifying national language and will not tolerate Hindi! Although, to be fair, English is also an Indo-European language, so they aren't far wrong on that one.

Whatever hindus claim was "brought from outside of South Asia" by Muslims can equally be said of Vedics. Whatever hindus discard due to it being "non-native" is only as "non-native" as what hindus retain in their cultural practices.

 

[Neojinnah]

It doesn't have to make sense to you. Facts are Facts.

The Harappan genomeE gave RISE TO modern Pakistanis.

In a hypothetical scenario where Pakistan was balkanized, and an independent state in Sindh, Punjab, etc emerged, then one could say the Harappan genome gave rise to Sindhudeshis, Punjabis, etc. It doesn't mean anything.

To me, it just seems this is derives from pointless and meaningless competition with Indians for IVC. The only reason Indians kang and chimp on these things is because many of them are religious fanatics who genuinely think it's a point of pride that their society is still locked in stone age customs. Similarly, there are many of them are embarassed that their country is deeply backwards and regressive, and the only positive spin they can make out of it is bragging about "cultural continuity".

 

[Master Chief]

In a hypothetical scenario where Pakistan was balkanized, and an independent state in Sindh, Punjab, etc emerged, then one could say the Harappan genome gave rise to Sindhudeshis, Punjabis, etc. It doesn't mean anything.

To me, it just seems this is derives from pointless and meaningless competition with Indians for IVC. The only reason Indians kang and chimp on these things is because many of them are religious fanatics who genuinely think it's a point of pride that their society is still locked in stone age customs. Similarly, there are many of them are embarassed that their country is deeply backwards and regressive, and the only positive spin they can make out of it is bragging about "cultural continuity".

Sure, but then you wouldn't expect modern Egypt to dump its history because they are now all monotheists who stopped worshipping the sun and stars millenia ago?

You're right that Indians have an ADDED reason to try and "kang" on Indus, but that is entirely their prerogative. We can't stop it but we can present our side of the argument that the ancient heritage possessed herein is ours.

Let's say polytheists existed next door to modern Egypt or Greece or Italy. You would (possibly) see the same phenomenon repeat itself and I would fully expect monotheistic Egypt, Greece, Italy all to resist such attempts at foreign appropriation.

In fact, only we seem to carry this curse in the modern world, of an overwhelmingly populated foreign nation state perpetually trying to snatch our history from under our noses.

 

[Neojinnah]

Sure, but then you wouldn't expect modern Egypt to dump its history because they are now all monotheists who stopped worshipping the sun and stars millenia ago?

Modern Egypt is a disgusting mismanaged deprived authoritarian third world cesspit. I think manufacturing legitimacy by tracing their heritage to ancient Egypt should be the last of their concerns.

We can't stop it but we can present our side of the argument that the ancient heritage possessed herein is ours.

See, how it works is that this is an Indo-Pak debate. Outside of our bubbles, no outsider cares who inherited the IVC or even what it is. Any one educated enough about the IVC would laugh if an Indian tried to exclusively claim it. They would also laugh at North Indians and Pakistanis fighting eachother for ownership because in their eyes, Pakistanis are just Muslim Indics (and Iranics) who broke away from the rest and have their own independent state.

 

[Neojinnah]

Modern Egypt is a disgusting mismanaged deprived authoritarian third world cesspit. I think manufacturing legitimacy by tracing their heritage to ancient Egypt should be the last of their concerns.


See, how it works is that this is an Indo-Pak debate. Outside of our bubbles, no outsider cares who inherited the IVC or even what it is. Any one educated enough about the IVC would laugh if an Indian tried to exclusively claim it. They would also laugh at North Indians and Pakistanis fighting eachother for ownership because in their eyes, Pakistanis are just Muslim Indics (and Iranics) who broke away from the rest and have their own independent state.

It's infinitely more useful to view Pakistan as Muslim India than it is to view it as the sacred sole exclusive inheritor of IVC.

Why?
Pakistan's borders which are apparently a mirror copy of the extents of the IVC are incomplete - Pakistani Pashtuns are divided from their ethnic kin across the Durand Line. Pakistani Punjabis and Paharis are cut off from the rest of their homeland which is now part of India in the form of East Punjab, Haryana, Jammu, etc. Pakistani Muhajirs are cut off from their ancestral territory. Their land used to be the centre of Muslim power in South Asia for centuries. All those legitimate ancestral ties and history disowned because Pakistani nationalism is hostile to the idea that we have legitimate cultural, ethnic, linguistic, and historical ties to India and Afghanistan.

Pakistani nationalism should be centred around serving the interesrs of its consituent nations and people. Instead the nationalist narrative is about ceding the majority of territory in South Asia to upper-caste Hindu Indics and justifying moth-eaten borders which punish Pakistanis.

 

[Neojinnah]

It's infinitely more useful to view Pakistan as Muslim India than it is to view it as the sacred sole exclusive inheritor of IVC.

Why?
Pakistan's borders which are apparently a mirror copy of the extents of the IVC are incomplete - Pakistani Pashtuns are divided from their ethnic kin across the Durand Line. Pakistani Punjabis and Paharis are cut off from the rest of their homeland which is now part of India in the form of East Punjab, Haryana, Jammu, etc. Pakistani Muhajirs are cut off from their ancestral territory. Their land used to be the centre of Muslim power in South Asia for centuries. All those legitimate ancestral ties and history disowned because Pakistani nationalism is hostile to the idea that we have legitimate cultural, ethnic, linguistic, and historical ties to India and Afghanistan.

Pakistani nationalism should be centred around serving the interesrs of its consituent nations and people. Instead the nationalist narrative is about ceding the majority of territory in South Asia to upper-caste Hindu Indics and justifying moth-eaten borders which punish Pakistanis.

Just to add to this, I think the current composition of states in South Asia and West Asia is a huge negative. Pakistan shouldn't exist and neither should India, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Iran, etc. With climate change, the rise of superintelligence, superpower rivalry b/w China and US, the impending collapse of the global economy, etc, it makes more sense for other countries to sign a non-aggression pact, loosen their borders, enhance trade and economic ties, and work together to develop a unified response to climate change rendering their land inhospitable to human life and to a superpower like the US or China potentially developing superintelligence and using it to prey on weaker, poorer, and technologically handicapped countries

 

[ThunderCat]

Maybe but there's very little curiosity about Urdu.

Indeed, which is why people think what is today commonly called "urdu" started in the Dehli Sultunate. No wait it started in the Mughal Empire. No wait it started in....

 

[ThunderCat]

Just to add to this, I think the current composition of states in South Asia and West Asia is a huge negative. Pakistan shouldn't exist and neither should India, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Iran, etc. With climate change, the rise of superintelligence, superpower rivalry b/w China and US, the impending collapse of the global economy, etc, it makes more sense for other countries to sign a non-aggression pact, loosen their borders, enhance trade and economic ties, and work together to develop a unified response to climate change rendering their land inhospitable to human life and to a superpower like the US or China potentially developing superintelligence and using it to prey on weaker, poorer, and technologically handicapped countries

In that case neither should most countries. Should Spain exist? Ask Basque nationalists and Catalan nationalists.

Should Italy exist? Ask the German nationalists in Northern Italy.

Should the United Kingdom exist? Just ask Welsh nationalists, or Irish nationalists or Scottish nationalists.

Almost no country is ethnically homogeneous. Even Qatar which is less than a million locals and ethnically Arab is tribally divided.

Human social dynamics are complex.

 

[r3alist]

For India you can actually point to things people still do. Vedic hymns passed down for over 3000 years are still being chanted. Keralas Koodiyattam tradition goes back over 2000 years

Ummm how do you know it's continuation

Honestly hindu traditions as a phrase is amorphously defined, you guy's can worship in many ways

How does sitting on the same land make Pakistan a continuation of the IVC? Harappa and Mohenjdaro are part of your heritage but that doesn't make Pakistan itself a civilisational state.

That's about right

 

[Neojinnah]

In that case neither should most countries. Should Spain exist? Ask Basque nationalists and Catalan nationalists.

Should Italy exist? Ask the German nationalists in Northern Italy.

Should the United Kingdom exist? Just ask Welsh nationalists, or Irish nationalists or Scottish nationalists.

Almost no country is ethnically homogeneous. Even Qatar which is less than a million locals and ethnically Arab is tribally divided.

Human social dynamics are complex.

None of those countries are relevant to my point. I am not arguing that Pakistan shouldn't exist because it has different ethnicities. I am saying Pakistan shouldn't exist because it punishes and weakens its core major ethnic nations - Punjabis and Pashtuns. It divides them from ancestral lands, routes, and markets they had been connected to for centuries upon centuries, and keeps them trapped in a fortress under siege between India and Afghanistan. Pakistan will be forever trapped in a perpetual conflict with these countries and at war with its own internal nations.

Many Pakistani nationalists are urban middle class Punjabis/Urdu-speakers so they treat Pakistani nationalism and identity as the default and completely forget that there are many deprived communities in Pakistan which haven't even received the proper schooling to see themselves as Pakistanis and only see it through the lens of Pakistani military checkposts, airstrikes, state-sponsored terror outfits, etc. Pakistani nationalism and identity is A LOT more fragile than anything in Western Europe since Pakistan has done almost absolutely nothing to spread it and deprived its population of things like education and universal literacy to foster a strong national identity.

 

[ThunderCat]

None of those countries are relevant to my point. I am not arguing that Pakistan shouldn't exist because it has different ethnicities. I am saying Pakistan shouldn't exist because it punishes and weakens its core major ethnic nations - Punjabis and Pashtuns. It divides them from ancestral lands, routes, and markets they had been connected to for centuries upon centuries, and keeps them trapped in a fortress under siege between India and Afghanistan. Pakistan will be forever trapped in a perpetual conflict with these countries and at war with its own internal nations.

Many Pakistani nationalists are urban middle class Punjabis/Urdu-speakers so they treat Pakistani nationalism and identity as the default and completely forget that there are many deprived communities in Pakistan which haven't even received the proper schooling to see themselves as Pakistanis and only see it through the lens of Pakistani military checkposts, airstrikes, state-sponsored terror outfits, etc.

Disagree.

Firstly most Pakistanis are so-called "urdu speakers." Lashkari (later named "urdu") is the most spoken language even if as a second or third a language there.

Pakistani nationalism is found mostly in Pashtuns, Punjabis and Kashmiris.

Sindhis, Baloch & elite class leftist Muhajirs are a bit more rebellious.

But my argument was relevant, considering civic nationalism for other countries is no different.

You have minorities in the countries that I mentioned who don't agree with the state civic nationalism so it's a subjective matter.

Italy did not exist until the 1800s and even today apparently Italians differ in sub-ethnicity and do not define other Italians as "Italian."

You have an ethnic German minorities in the north of Italy wanting to break away. Should Italy exist anymore than Pakistan?

Don't get me started on Bharat. It has China on the North, Pakistan to the West to deal with.

Afghanistan has it's own internal ethnic issues and KP is not entirely Pashtun to begin with.

It's a bit more complex than that.

 

[Neojinnah]

Italy did not exist until the 1800s and even today apparently Italians differ in sub-ethnicity and do not define other Italians as "Italian."

You have an ethnic German minorities in the north of Italy wanting to break away. Should Italy exist anymore than Pakistan?

Don't get me started on Bharat. It has China on the North, Pakistan to the West to deal with.

Afghanistan has it's own internal ethnic issues and KP is not entirely Pashtun to begin with.

I reiterate. Pakistan is not Europe. Italy is not at war with its own people. It is not at war with its neighbours. In fact, it is part of the European Union. Pakistan on the other hand is in a perpetual state of cold war with two neighbours. Remember, I didn't say those other countries should exist either. The same logic goes for countries like India and Afghanistan.

 

[Master Chief]

I reiterate. Pakistan is not Europe. Italy is not at war with its own people. It is not at war with its neighbours. In fact, it is part of the European Union. Pakistan on the other hand is in a perpetual state of cold war with two neighbours. Remember, I didn't say those other countries should exist either. The same logic goes for countries like India and Afghanistan.

Your argument is no longer against Pakistan as a civilisational state. It is against Pakistan as a state.

 

[ThunderCat]

I reiterate. Pakistan is not Europe. Italy is not at war with its own people. It is not at war with its neighbours. In fact, it is part of the European Union. Pakistan on the other hand is in a perpetual state of cold war with two neighbours. Remember, I didn't say those other countries should exist either. The same logic goes for countries like India and Afghanistan.

You have a point, but Bharat is also at war with China & Pakistan separately.

Also almost no country is ethnically. Even little Latvia has a Levonian speaking monitory.

And no Pakistan is not "at war" with minorities necessarily than other countries.

Italy might be stable country but it's not always the case. They also have issues.

They are though a sustainable country unlike Pakistanis which is grossly overpopulated.

Singapore, which is majority Chinese still distinguishes itself from PRC and it's people claim their own distinct Han Chinese subculture.

So same ethnicity does not always count/ it's also ideological.

Pakistani Pashtuns have no desire to join Afghanistan and want Afghoonis the f*ck out of KP.

They're tired of them.