hydrabadi_arab
Trusted Member
it was fake news
Operation Ghazab Lil Haq (Pakistan - Afghanistan War)
- Thread starter ghazi52
- Start date
it was fake news
Oscar
Moderator
The will both in establishment and their political allies is gone for it.
Too busy preserving their seats and going about inflaming the ethnic angle both unwillingly and at times willingly.
But yes ideally that would be the best way to go about it except sustaining it would be extremely expensive.
The actual solution is a Afghan ruling framework - basically using the local commanders create this buffer. Unfortunately, this is what Pakistan had actually envisioned through its support of TTA which never worked out.
The solution then is NOT to try and fix KP through Afghanistan but to fix KP through itself.
There are LEGITMATE greviences created through both the state and by its controlling factor in the establishment.
The issue is the mentality of the establishment which does not understand the idea of reconciliation and apology - that in its own ENSURES that it cannot hold its own lines of communications to manage the threat in Afghanistan.
Oscar
Moderator
Mujahid
Registered Member
hydrabadi_arab
Trusted Member
bafxet
Registered Member
The one big mistake that Pakistan did was to save these thankless Taliban from US rage. Pakistan should let US bomb them to annihilate them once and for all
iron shrapnel
Registered Member
Oh how i wish they hit Lahore and Punjab with those half stiched together kamikaze drones so they understand what the rest of the country is going through in terms of actual terrorism....
Every day there's a neo liberal commie popping out with either, Yawr unko bhee tau sumjho naw or
افغانستان ہماڑے لیے ڈاکٹڑ بھیجے گاں
Oscar
Moderator
Its been restated by plenty here but just to get some refocused discussion on this.
There are still 3 main issues at play here:
1. Durand line: This was done between Afghan Emirs and the Brits in 1893 which EVERY Afghan government since 47 has rejected it saying it was void by the Brits leaving. This is a STATE practice REGARDLESS of WHO RULES AFGHANISTAN. Now, they are using it to give sanctuary to TTP basically under the guise of getting some territory. This is a long standing emotional string pulled by every Afghan government EVER.
2. TTP: This movement was practically DEAD late 2020 and then suddenly when the TTA take over - they freed even those TTP that were jailed in Afghanistan by Ghani through pressure from the US... under the aspect that all TTP are their brothers. They are treating the TTP as an ethnic brotherhood - not as a foreign terrorist force for a variety of reasons that also tie back to how Islamabad pre-2001 created the Taliban and promoted intermarriages in FATA and Afghanistan border regions(more than the usual)
3. Pakistan expected a lot more out of the Taliban and instead they got their ... handed back to them because the Afghan did not care for Pakistan's help. Unfortunately only ignorant people tie this to Pakistan role in WoT when infact even in the first Afghan Emirate the Taliban really did not deliver ANYTHING to Pakistan and WERE STILL HARPING ON THE DURAND line - with only Haqqani and a few others helping keep the peace.
Basically, the establishment's breeding of snakes (For goals that ranged from keeping the Soviets out to "second army" to establishing free trade corridor to central asia) backfired.
Barring the overall aspect of Pakistan's own failed system -
The only logical path that emerges knowing how the Afghan acts is:
1. Pakistan stops caring and even talking on Durand line but also does not try to "invade"
2. Kabul is told - keep the border districts clean of TTP and we stop the bombing, open all trade with additional sweeteners thrown in.
3. Fix your own governance and political mess in KP - APOLOGIZE for how your operations against TTP impacted civilians REGARDLESS of how the local population did or did not behave because at the end they are YOUR countrymen and NOT KABULs. No matter HOW THEY acted before - you serve THEM.
4. Linking to 2 - both let those that get money from trade in those area get it but provide the people of the area more incentives to make money eastward, northward and other places. Give them alternative ways to make money with what they do currently and then over a decade or so wean them off.
Those trade programs and schools are great until you cannot have these people make the same amount of money they were before. If growing and pushing drugs, smuggling or even militant groups provides more - why would someone choose a lower paying trade in this era of expense? Expecting "honesty" from people who really do survive in abject poverty is idiotic while you live great lifestyles.
There are still 3 main issues at play here:
1. Durand line: This was done between Afghan Emirs and the Brits in 1893 which EVERY Afghan government since 47 has rejected it saying it was void by the Brits leaving. This is a STATE practice REGARDLESS of WHO RULES AFGHANISTAN. Now, they are using it to give sanctuary to TTP basically under the guise of getting some territory. This is a long standing emotional string pulled by every Afghan government EVER.
2. TTP: This movement was practically DEAD late 2020 and then suddenly when the TTA take over - they freed even those TTP that were jailed in Afghanistan by Ghani through pressure from the US... under the aspect that all TTP are their brothers. They are treating the TTP as an ethnic brotherhood - not as a foreign terrorist force for a variety of reasons that also tie back to how Islamabad pre-2001 created the Taliban and promoted intermarriages in FATA and Afghanistan border regions(more than the usual)
3. Pakistan expected a lot more out of the Taliban and instead they got their ... handed back to them because the Afghan did not care for Pakistan's help. Unfortunately only ignorant people tie this to Pakistan role in WoT when infact even in the first Afghan Emirate the Taliban really did not deliver ANYTHING to Pakistan and WERE STILL HARPING ON THE DURAND line - with only Haqqani and a few others helping keep the peace.
Basically, the establishment's breeding of snakes (For goals that ranged from keeping the Soviets out to "second army" to establishing free trade corridor to central asia) backfired.
Barring the overall aspect of Pakistan's own failed system -
The only logical path that emerges knowing how the Afghan acts is:
1. Pakistan stops caring and even talking on Durand line but also does not try to "invade"
2. Kabul is told - keep the border districts clean of TTP and we stop the bombing, open all trade with additional sweeteners thrown in.
3. Fix your own governance and political mess in KP - APOLOGIZE for how your operations against TTP impacted civilians REGARDLESS of how the local population did or did not behave because at the end they are YOUR countrymen and NOT KABULs. No matter HOW THEY acted before - you serve THEM.
4. Linking to 2 - both let those that get money from trade in those area get it but provide the people of the area more incentives to make money eastward, northward and other places. Give them alternative ways to make money with what they do currently and then over a decade or so wean them off.
Those trade programs and schools are great until you cannot have these people make the same amount of money they were before. If growing and pushing drugs, smuggling or even militant groups provides more - why would someone choose a lower paying trade in this era of expense? Expecting "honesty" from people who really do survive in abject poverty is idiotic while you live great lifestyles.
Oscar
Moderator
Now - what is likely to happen?
Pakistan is doing the same divide and rule
Why? Because it knows(rightly) that the Taliban(read Afghan) in their governance model which is basically masculine jerking off is unsustainable and WILL COLLAPSE into rifts - they want to help it along.
What is happening with KP on back and forth accusations of each side saying "you failed" is a province more alienated from the center until it becomes permanent - and it seems very much that if we disregard the ethnofacists in PML(N) - the establishment at least are also blind to it in their usual "We are right" attitude.
FATA is actually at the same state or worse than Zarb e Azb - and now even more difficult to clear BECAUSE where previously it was the mixed ANA - US aspect which was part sanctuary part traded cleanup - the TTA FULLY SUPPORT THE TTP with ZERO qualms.
But this may not be immediate and the bigger problem is Pakistan actually had leverage through Karachi as Afghanistan's "port". Now that both sides are focused on bypassing each other - this logn standing leverage ALONG WITH ALL IN PAKISTAN that profited from it are rusting and creating economic issues. This is decades worth of infra - livelihoods that will eventually be supplanted but never revived again.
Pakistan is doing the same divide and rule
Why? Because it knows(rightly) that the Taliban(read Afghan) in their governance model which is basically masculine jerking off is unsustainable and WILL COLLAPSE into rifts - they want to help it along.
What is happening with KP on back and forth accusations of each side saying "you failed" is a province more alienated from the center until it becomes permanent - and it seems very much that if we disregard the ethnofacists in PML(N) - the establishment at least are also blind to it in their usual "We are right" attitude.
FATA is actually at the same state or worse than Zarb e Azb - and now even more difficult to clear BECAUSE where previously it was the mixed ANA - US aspect which was part sanctuary part traded cleanup - the TTA FULLY SUPPORT THE TTP with ZERO qualms.
But this may not be immediate and the bigger problem is Pakistan actually had leverage through Karachi as Afghanistan's "port". Now that both sides are focused on bypassing each other - this logn standing leverage ALONG WITH ALL IN PAKISTAN that profited from it are rusting and creating economic issues. This is decades worth of infra - livelihoods that will eventually be supplanted but never revived again.
Oscar
Moderator
The big mistake was to keep sustaining them anyway thanks to Hamid Gul's myopic obsession with it.
Off topic and linking back to why I put the articles on army reform:
The bigger mistake and cultural garbage is the establishment's inability to say "we were wrong".
Which is why both ideas of throwing out the establishment are juvenile fantasies as are those that support their excesses -
Pakistan is not an Islamic society.
Because EVERY - EVERY time Allah sent a message - it was sent as a question and introspection to the existing malaise in the system.
Every opposition to the goodness Allah sent was by existing systems.
Nooh (علیه السلام) - the leaders then said "We have never heard of this among our forefathers of old."
Ibrahim (علیه السلام) - His father did not say the idols answered or fed them. They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."
Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) - the Quraysh said "We found our fathers upon a religion, and we are guided by their footsteps."
The establishment is not only GHQ. It is the wider system of inherited certainty: the belief that a policy cannot be wrong if respected generals, diplomats, religious figures, landlords, civil servants, television anchors, and family elders have repeated it long enough.
That is not taught in Kakul or Quetta - it is "tribal" knowledge and "selection" which is basically a case of "Garbage in , Garbage out" where Garbage is Pakistani (culture and social norms across all). It is a NATIONAL culture where admitting a foundational error can be treated as disloyalty rather than professionalism. Heck, even the so called reformist party in PTI and its die hard cultists do the same.
Which is exactly why change has to come from within the military and establishment as much as from outside it.
Not through a childish fantasy of purging everyone
Not through a political upheaval that just rinse and repeat produces another faction.
Pakistan's establishment - in this case its Army and intelligence are not failures due to today's Afghan or Balochistan situation - but because they still defend yesterday's doctrine when it comes to statecraft.
ALL that is needed to fix Pakistan is - and I mean this with no simple terms.
What the Afghan did or does do does not matter - their problem is their own.
What India did or does do - not my actions.
What the United States does - not my actions.
We were wrong; now we will change.
Starlord
Trusted Member
PK781
Trusted Member
unfortunately this issue has become such a white elephant that its neither possible to get rid of it, nor move it or give it up. Its like its here permanently and there's nothing that can be done (if there is NO WILL). Because it may cause alot of people their cushy seats/jobs/livelihoods, perhaps even lives.
if any hardcore decision was to be made and taken and implemented, it was always going to be the military/coas/CDS. Once upon a time people hoped it would be Musharraf, then Raheel Sharif, then Kayani. Bajwa was discarded. But now even Asim won't do anything but status quo. Everyone else will as usual, wash their hands and say oh its not our decision(powerless anyway), we all know who makes the decisions in Pakistan, since always.
You can't really be saved when you have lost your moral compass. Its like they have abandoned islam totally for the evil satanic ways bcaz they show u the money and corruptions.
We've been punished for decades for straying away from the true islamic ways and for mistreating/disrespecting QuaideAzam. and many others. Look how we treated our scientist Dr Qadeer Khan. Or how we dismissed Edhi Sb. While we glorify turds like pmln, ppp, pti. How we give importance to personalities in everything rather than depending and following the one islam (Allah SWT, RasoolAllah PBUH and the Noble Quran).
On one side we claim to be signing defense agreements in ME while onther end we cant even handle ragtags militias and talibunnies. How does the world take us seriously?
if any hardcore decision was to be made and taken and implemented, it was always going to be the military/coas/CDS. Once upon a time people hoped it would be Musharraf, then Raheel Sharif, then Kayani. Bajwa was discarded. But now even Asim won't do anything but status quo. Everyone else will as usual, wash their hands and say oh its not our decision(powerless anyway), we all know who makes the decisions in Pakistan, since always.
You can't really be saved when you have lost your moral compass. Its like they have abandoned islam totally for the evil satanic ways bcaz they show u the money and corruptions.
We've been punished for decades for straying away from the true islamic ways and for mistreating/disrespecting QuaideAzam. and many others. Look how we treated our scientist Dr Qadeer Khan. Or how we dismissed Edhi Sb. While we glorify turds like pmln, ppp, pti. How we give importance to personalities in everything rather than depending and following the one islam (Allah SWT, RasoolAllah PBUH and the Noble Quran).
On one side we claim to be signing defense agreements in ME while onther end we cant even handle ragtags militias and talibunnies. How does the world take us seriously?
Hakikat ve Hikmet
VIP Member
On top of it the PTI CM in KPK has uttered "East Pakistan"! I am pretty sure the Pak Deep State has now learnt how to deter Mujibs, MBs, Bharati Bases, Indiras, Breznevs, Moshe Aaarons etc. IMHO they better apply the "Kemal Pasha" method (i.e. the Ottoman-era codeword sent to the field commanders: Haddini Bildirin [show them their places]). It means ruthless suppression* of the traitors like TTP, TTA etc. in particular, and the Afgan Pashtuns and their cohorts inside Pakistan in general.....
Strangely, this ops has coincided with the visit of the Turkish Intelligence Tzar, who happens to be a professor of Islamic Sciences with a PhD from Georgetown University....
*The TurAF dropped chemical bombs to wipe out the Zaza separatists and rebels in 1930s. The current Vice-President of Turkey is a Zaza Kurd.
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