Clashes with Afghan Taliban break out again: Taliban removing fence and covering for TTP infiltration

[Baadil]

What was even the point of that Jinnah quotation?
Did I fail to mention, in excruciating detail, the League's attempts to make up for lost ground due to the alignment of the Ali Brothers with the Congress, the leadership role within the Congress of a prominent Alim, and the complete domination of the Pakhtun imagination by Badshah Khan?
What else would an advocate have articulated then?

I never said otherwise.

Pakistan was never formed as a theological Islamic state, but as a secular democracy that would repeat the value system of the majority and not betray the essentials of Islam.

The quote supplemented my comment on the above.

The point being?

An understanding of religious tenets is crucial rather than projecting an understanding of them from any amount knowledge of historical context of interaction between primarily religious groups. Else, there is only superficial commentary on the principle goals of different religious groups.

 

[Baadil]

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Now will the blame be shifted to rogue elements or will there be accountability?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I never said otherwise.

The quote supplemented my comment on the above.

An understanding of religious tenets is crucial rather than projecting an understanding of them from any amount knowledge of historical context of interaction between primarily religious groups. Else, there is only superficial commentary on the principle goals of different religious groups.

I am sorry, I seem to have failed to understand your quotation of Jinnah.
Apologies.
On the other point, I don't understand what is being said. Let me wait for further posts.

 

[r3alist]

Residual identity crisis since partition

There is a thread where an Indian is talking about throwing Gandhi away to embrace a new direction.


Worry about your own identity crisis, undignified for such an old nation to still be finding it's self.

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

With a RSS ideology ruling over India I am not surprised you don't know what really secularism is. Look at the fascist hindutva dictatorship direction of your country and you call yourself a democracy. You preach the ideology of a guy who murdered your founding father gandhi. Now that's some real identity crisis.
MA Jinnah was secular its unfortunate later his ideology was hijacked. We got partition for Muslims of subcontinent but the constitution was meant to be separated from the religion. That's what secularism is and that's why I am a secular nationalist.
I hope your fellow Indian @Joe Shearer will atleast try to understand what I am saying and share his two cents.

Muhammad Ali Jinnah didn't want a theocracy like in Iran and Afghanistan, but Islamic social democracy. He made countless references to that and none to secularism, unless you think allowing non Muslims to practice their religion is secularism than you would be surprised to know that the Prophet PBUH did that too and thus, this too is an Islamic principal.

Anyway, here is some of his speeches and promises to the constituents of the new state.
"You have to stand guard over the development and maintenance of Islamic democracy, Islamic social justice and the equality of manhood in your own native soil"

Quaid to officers & men of the 5th Heavy & 6th Light Ack Ack Regiments in Malir, Karachi (21 February 1948)

"I cant understand logic of those who hv bn deliberately & mischievously propagating tht Constitution of Pak will not b based on Islamic Sharia. Islamic principles today are as much applicable to life as they were 1300 years ago”

Speech to Karachi Bar Association, Jan 25, 1948

"The foundation of our Islamic code is that we stand for liberty, equality and fraternity"
"We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice"

Quaid address on occasion of opening of State bank of Pakistan (1st July 1948)

"I am glad that there is full realization on your part tht now the position is basically different. It is no longer a foreign govt .... but it is now a MUSLIM govt & MUSLIM rule that holds the reigns of this great .... State of #Pakistan"

Address to Tribal Jirga 17 April 1948

"In the end I warmly thank you for the wholehearted & unstinted declaration of your pledge & your assurances to support #Pakistan, so that it may reach the pinnacle of glories of Islam and become a great and mighty nation among other nations of the world"

Speech to jirga 17/4/48

"You are only voicing my sentiments and the sentiments of millions of Musalmans when you say that [[Pakistan should be based on sure foundations of social justice and Islamic socialism]] which emphasizes equality and brotherhood of man."

Speech in Chittagong, 26/3/1948

"It is my belief tht our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great law giver, Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundation of our democracy on the basis of truly Islamic ideals & principles"

#QuaidEAzam at Darbar in Sibi Balochistan 14/2/1948

"What more can one really expect than to see that this mighty land has now been brought under a rule, which is Islamic, Muslim rule, as a sovereign independent State"

Speech in reply to Welcome Address by the Principal, Staff & Students of Edwardes College, Peshawar, 18/4/1948

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

If it comes to that---pakistan would decimate afg the likes of which they never imagined---.

Hi,

I can recall when the 4 russian attack helicopter were integrated---we had no news---no pictures at all---they did not even exist and yet they did---.

 

[panzerfaust 3]

I don't waste my time with these intellectually underdeveloped specimens, but sympathise totally with your position.

Hmm, intellectually underdeveloped?

One qualification.

Only a segment - a regrettably large segment - of Indian society subscribes to the bigotry of the present party running the central government. Unfortunately, the voice of the moderate or of the liberal is rarely heard at such times.

You see the bigotry of the present government? But are you not a witness of the BIGOTRY of the previous one eh?

please elaborate what kind of bigotry the present FASCIST! HINDUTVA! SANGHI! Government is indulged in ??
And how is that any different from the bigotry found in some sort of a republic on the western border? If you are sympathetic to it?

I know it's off topic but please

 

[panzerfaust 3]

With a RSS ideology ruling over India I am not surprised you don't know what really secularism is.

I am bursting with curiosity here , are are you goi g to tell us about secularism? Eh

Have your country ever had any kind of secularism? In any given span of time?
Pakistanis should be the last persons to lecture us on secularism

Look at the fascist hindutva dictatorship direction of your country and you call yourself a democracy. You preach the ideology of a guy who murdered your founding father gandhi. Now that's some real identity crisis.

Not really ! Where are you getting it from? THESE BIG WORDS! FASCIST! DICTATORSHIP?
I mean you haven't seen what a real democracy is,it's not like Pakistan is the glittering beacon of democracy and secularism here in S/E ASIA?

MA Jinnah was secular its unfortunate later his ideology was hijacked. We got partition for Muslims of subcontinent but the constitution was meant to be separated from the religion.

There can be no separation of church and state in your case mosque and state when your constitution derives its authority not from the people but from religion!

Was it really hijacked? Or your majority wanted the same?

I have not seen any proper functioning democracy in any Islamic country

We can discuss the case of turkey but it's going to take some time

That's what secularism is and that's why I am a secular nationalist.
I hope your fellow Indian @Joe Shearer will atleast try to understand what I am saying and share his two cents.

 

[Hopefully Pessimistic]

Regarding the secularism - Islamic debate

The issue with Pakistan exists at a societal level, otherwise at a state level it operates more as a hybrid regime where religion is taken into account but not the final decision

Pakistani society however is highly brainwashed around the ummah concept despite the fact it doesn't really exist at all - simply because your "ummah" doesn't even believe in it, they care for their own people like any sane person.

It's a highly extremist and uneducated society

 

[SecularNationalist]

Su30MK1 is being manufactured in India from raw material stage for decades even the engine of su30mki is manufactured in India, India has modified the AL-31 engine to increase thrust and service life

Whether true or false, this is the kind of counter-narrative building alluded to.

Thank you for your reply sir. Once time allows, I will provide a lengthier commentary.

However, an understanding of “the essentials of Islam” is categorical for exposing the nonsensical idea of seeing Muslims as quasi-ethnic group. Again, religious discussions are supposedly not allowed (on a forum centred around a country whose formation was, we should at least agree, flavoured by religion.

"Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions." - Jinnah

What was even the point of that Jinnah quotation?
Did I fail to mention, in excruciating detail, the League's attempts to make up for lost ground due to the alignment of the Ali Brothers with the Congress, the leadership role within the Congress of a prominent Alim, and the complete domination of the Pakhtun imagination by Badshah Khan?
What else would an advocate have articulated then?

The above quote of Jinnah serves no purpose in this debate which is all about pakistani secularism.
Differences arise between communities and they cannot coexist with each other because of several different reasons. You can be extremely religious personally but secular at the same time. Secular people exist in different civilizations,cultures and ethnicities.
One fine example is myself I believe in secularism regardless of what the hijacked constitution of my country dictates.

 

[randomDude2024]

Well. Your knowledge of history starts from the day USSR attacked Afghanistan and West/Pak went against them.

My history starts from the day when King of Afghanistan attacked Pakistan using it's regular forces. And he repeated the same mistake 2 more times. Pakistan tribal belt has been attacked by Afghan kings 3 times. It is only then that Pak realised Afghanistan won't let it survive. So it sought Allies. UsSR attack on Afghanistan was that opportunity for Pakistan which it took. This is not Pakistan's "blunder", but availed opportunity"

God, finally. Someone who reads history. Most people here don't understand long term policy goals.

 

[SecularNationalist]

I am bursting with curiosity here , are are you goi g to tell us about secularism? Eh

Have your country ever had any kind of secularism? In any given span of time?
Pakistanis should be the last persons to lecture us on secularism

Not really ! Where are you getting it from? THESE BIG WORDS! FASCIST! DICTATORSHIP?
I mean you haven't seen what a real democracy is,it's not like Pakistan is the glittering beacon of democracy and secularism here in S/E ASIA?

Yes I do accept and accepted many times before that there was never a proper secularism implemented in pakistan. There is no democracy here. But yet I perfectly know what secularism and democracy is like any educated person would. And I also know the sorry state of secularism and democracy in your country.

There can be no separation of church and state in your case mosque and state when your constitution derives its authority not from the people but from religion!

Read the above post of @Joe Shearer
Religion exists because of the living beings that believe in it. Let some common sense prevail dear.

 

[randomDude2024]

Trust me on this, the people of Pakistan would rather have the Taliban as their government than your corrupt and drunk military leadership. Any mistake from your establishment will lead to the people of Pakistan claiming your military's heads. Nearly everyone in Pakistan is dead tired of the corrupt and drunk establishment. Even the people of Kashmir is rising.

Your army is just there to oppress your people. They will not venture into a conflict with Afghanistan which would risk the power and financial interests.

If anything, your corrupt establishment is using the border conflicts (and at times escalating them) to take away the peoples attention from the domestic issues.

Lastly, all these lying twitter accounts are pulling casualty numbers out of their a**.

I can see you're a victim of online Indian trolls. No such thing brother. Plenty of pro-army Pakistanis. People here hate the Taliban btw. IDK why, but for some reason you guys seem to forget that the Taliban have murdered and killed countless Pakistanis in suicide bombing and shooting rampages. Pakistanis will never accept the Taliban. We hate our government sure. We defo hate religious extremists and fundamentalists more. No space for Mullay and relgious extremists in Pakistan. You are living in a fools paradise if you think otherwise. Biggest religious parties such as TLP,JUI and even Jamat barely get more than 2 seats in elections.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You see the bigotry of the present government? But are you not a witness of the BIGOTRY of the previous one eh?

No.

please elaborate what kind of bigotry the present FASCIST! HINDUTVA! SANGHI! Government is indulged in ??

If you are not aware of it, nothing short of a clawed hammer skilfully wielded by the muscular arm of a professional will make you aware. Do not be stupid. My few remaining hours cannot be wasted on this kind of tripe.

And how is that any different from the bigotry found in some sort of a republic on the western border? If you are sympathetic to it?

Look up what-aboutery and stop disturbing this discussion. This kind of retarded schoolboy addled post is why I replied to @SecularNationalist as I originally did.

 

[panzerfaust 3]

Yes I do accept and accepted many times before that there was never a proper secularism implemented in pakistan. There is no democracy here. But yet I perfectly know what secularism and democracy is like any educated person would.

So do you feel the right to lecture us? In that case I find it funny
And yes we know about secularism maybe better than you

And I also know the sorry state of secularism and democracy in your country.

Not really, you have a biased sense of what's happening in my country but again it's a really hard thing bypassing it.

Read the above post of @Joe Shearer
Religion exists because of the living beings that believe in it. Let some common sense prevail dear.

And what religion has to do with the state policies? May I ask
What's the basis of secularism?