PTI freedom movement against Judiciary and Establishment: News, Discussion & Updates

[PakAl]

Societal problem.

Give the average Pakistani wealth and power in Pakistan and see what he becomes, a person without principles, exploitative, oppressive towards anyone he deems weaker.

I agree, when a poor person gains wealth, suddenly you notice an attitude change in him, they want to oppress the weak, overtake their land, properties, try to control them. They claim this is the real world and the weak should be submitting to the powerful, just like they used to lick the feets of the rich and dacoits. If not then you deserve to suffer. Its satanic mindset.

 

[PakAl]

People still refuse to use the power they hold.

Allah sent the angles in Badr only after the Muslims entered the battlefield.

Pakistanis unfortunately are waiting for Khan to give the call and I guess Khan is waiting for people to mobilize organically. I pray and hope, Aleema Khan can take the lead and call for mobilization.

This all has to end, one way or another

He already gave the call and what happened? Its best for PTI to first get Khan out of jail, then sit down and find out where have they gone wrong and why didn't the 250m people do anything. Getting 100,000 people on the streets is not the same as 10Million. Pakistanis as a nation love to sit home and plot in their minds, but noone would want to risk it all for PTI or Khan. He's in jail for 9odd months, where are the people? Waiting for courts mercy?

 

[Davey Crockett]

He already gave the call and what happened? Its best for PTI to first get Khan out of jail, then sit down and find out where have they gone wrong and why didn't the 250m people do anything. Getting 100,000 people on the streets is not the same as 10Million. Pakistanis as a nation love to sit home and plot in their minds, but noone would want to risk it all for PTI or Khan. He's in jail for 9odd months, where are the people? Waiting for courts mercy?

This is an ancient question, I think best explored by.....

The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude | Mises Institute

States are more vulnerable than people think. They can collapse in an instant—when consent is withdrawn.This is the thesis of this thrilling book. Murray

mises.org

States are more vulnerable than people think. They can collapse in an instant—when consent is withdrawn.

This is the thesis of this thrilling book. Murray Rothbard writes a classic introduction to one of the great political essays in the history of ideas.

In times when dictators the world over are falling from pressure from their own people, this book, written nearly 500 years ago, is truly the prophetic tract of our times.

Étienne de La Boétie was born in Sarlat, in the Périgord region of southwest France, in 1530, to an aristocratic family, and became a dear friend of Michel de Montaigne. But he ought to be remembered for this astonishingly important essay, one of the greatest in the history of political thought. It will shake the way you think of the state. His thesis and argument amount to the best answer to Machiavelli ever penned as well as one of the seminal essays in defense of liberty.

 

[PakAl]

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[PakAl]

This is an ancient question, I think best explored by.....

The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude | Mises Institute

States are more vulnerable than people think. They can collapse in an instant—when consent is withdrawn.This is the thesis of this thrilling book. Murray

mises.org

States are more vulnerable than people think. They can collapse in an instant—when consent is withdrawn.

This is the thesis of this thrilling book. Murray Rothbard writes a classic introduction to one of the great political essays in the history of ideas.

In times when dictators the world over are falling from pressure from their own people, this book, written nearly 500 years ago, is truly the prophetic tract of our times.

Étienne de La Boétie was born in Sarlat, in the Périgord region of southwest France, in 1530, to an aristocratic family, and became a dear friend of Michel de Montaigne. But he ought to be remembered for this astonishingly important essay, one of the greatest in the history of political thought. It will shake the way you think of the state. His thesis and argument amount to the best answer to Machiavelli ever penned as well as one of the seminal essays in defense of liberty.

Thanks, I'll read it soon.
Pakistan problem is we never had any effective political force with a strong ideology. All other parties were guided by the feudal landlords. The Pakistan movement was a people movement and they achieved their goal despite many conspiracies. We cannot build an ideology with uneducated people, most of our public doesn't understand politics, importance of education, critical thinking, research, reading, ideology etc.

 

[Davey Crockett]

Thanks, I'll read it soon.
Pakistan problem is we never had any effective political force with a strong ideology. All other parties were guided by the feudal landlords. The Pakistan movement was a people movement and they achieved their goal despite many conspiracies. We cannot build an ideology with uneducated people, most of our public doesn't understand politics, importance of education, critical thinking, research, reading, ideology etc.

Thank you for the summary. Gives me a better idea of what is going on.

Years ago, I oversaw the books for a wealthy individual who owned five companies. One was a process control engineering firm, employees all from Pakistan. The Pakistani manager was great to work with. Any outstanding issue was dealt with every Tuesday morning. Honest, to the point, reliable. Always a pleasure to work with.

 

[Davey Crockett]

We cannot build an ideology with uneducated people, most of our public doesn't understand politics, importance of education, critical thinking, research, reading, ideology etc.

This describes the majority of Americans today, unfortunately.

Fortunately, the Founding Fathers of America created a Republic back in 1789, during times when people were better educated, or better understood the issues (because they actually suffered under the tyranny of King George III).

When you write, "build an ideology" what do you mean?

Rule of law? Constitution?

 

[FuturePAF]

He already gave the call and what happened? Its best for PTI to first get Khan out of jail, then sit down and find out where have they gone wrong and why didn't the 250m people do anything. Getting 100,000 people on the streets is not the same as 10Million. Pakistanis as a nation love to sit home and plot in their minds, but noone would want to risk it all for PTI or Khan. He's in jail for 9odd months, where are the people? Waiting for courts mercy?

Remember the old adage; You broke it you bought it. Getting IK out without a plan on governance is just going to repeat the mistakes of the previous IK government.

What the PTI needs is well research plan on what kind of reforms it would take to turn the economy around, and very importantly how much money they need to bridge the initial gap.

There is a trust gap between the public and the government via a vi tax money. Before people can be convinced (forced) to pay more in taxes they want results or as they say in Pakistan, “relief”. For ex same, if petrol prices are raised to market rate, then the government should have a public transportation system planned out for regular street, to ease the burden on, on as close to day 1 as possible.

PTI needs to know how many billions of dollars it needs its supporters to collected in the eventuality PTI returns to government, and how this money can best be spend, with supporters compensated with a share in government owned companies or bonds or wholesale sale of government owned companies.

Pakistan is languishing hoping to raise a few billion here and there to spur on the economy, but if there is a PTI “war chest” of $10-20 Billion in cold hard cash, ready to be deployed for the first year of office, it could really give the PTI the space to make changes and negotiate with the powers that be, a new reality for Pakistan.

This is sort of similar to what South Korea did in 1998, and the handing over of personal gold. Individuals, that can afford it, can save up to buy gold, locally and in the diaspora.

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On the ground, PTI officials (especially those that had their seats stolen in the election) could survey the public and find out what really matters to people in their specific locales, so those priorities can be studied and ranked to see if they should be funded, once PTI is back in office.

The people need to see what they are risking their lives for if they go out on the street.

 

[Pradotlc]

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Imran Riaz Khan has been arrested once again. The Islamabad High Court had granted him permission to go for Hajj today.

the combo of scum bags that rule Pakistan.....

 

[PakFactor]

He already gave the call and what happened? Its best for PTI to first get Khan out of jail, then sit down and find out where have they gone wrong and why didn't the 250m people do anything. Getting 100,000 people on the streets is not the same as 10Million. Pakistanis as a nation love to sit home and plot in their minds, but noone would want to risk it all for PTI or Khan. He's in jail for 9odd months, where are the people? Waiting for courts mercy?

He has held multiple rallies, but when the pressure mounted, he backed down and called things off. This did not send a revolutionary message of any sort. Eventually, he overplayed things.

While he was popular and people listened to his words, they couldn't skip work and sit around, as people have families to feed. Some people require real sustenance to stay alive and operate, not just "donkey biryani" like the PML-N and PPP folks. Hence, none would be willing to take a bullet.

The idiots would fight the army, and the sensible would sit down and talk things through. Imran Khan did have one issue, and that was not taking proper advice and listening to politically illiterate people. When people within his own party said to remove Usman Dar, he didn't listen and went against the majority of voices. Now, from personal sources within local security and individuals involved in talks, they presented ideas and policy positions he would agree with, but then the next day he would do a complete 180; there is a reason his wife became a target, and people don't just talk for nothing.

One thing about toppling the system is that if people have lost everything and hope, then it's easier to take a unruly crowd and forcibly change things.

Remember the old adage; You broke it you bought it. Getting IK out without a plan on governance is just going to repeat the mistakes of the previous IK government.

What the PTI needs is well research plan on what kind of reforms it would take to turn the economy around, and very importantly how much money they need to bridge the initial gap.

There is a trust gap between the public and the government via a vi tax money. Before people can be convinced (forced) to pay more in taxes they want results or as they say in Pakistan, “relief”. For ex same, if petrol prices are raised to market rate, then the government should have a public transportation system planned out for regular street, to ease the burden on, on as close to day 1 as possible.

PTI needs to know how many billions of dollars it needs its supporters to collected in the eventuality PTI returns to government, and how this money can best be spend, with supporters compensated with a share in government owned companies or bonds or wholesale sale of government owned companies.

Pakistan is languishing hoping to raise a few billion here and there to spur on the economy, but if there is a PTI “war chest” of $10-20 Billion in cold hard cash, ready to be deployed for the first year of office, it could really give the PTI the space to make changes and negotiate with the powers that be, a new reality for Pakistan.

This is sort of similar to what South Korea did in 1998, and the handing over of personal gold. Individuals, that can afford it, can save up to buy gold, locally and in the diaspora.

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On the ground, PTI officials (especially those that had their seats stolen in the election) could survey the public and find out what really matters to people in their specific locales, so those priorities can be studied and ranked to see if they should be funded, once PTI is back in office.

The people need to see what they are risking their lives for if they go out on the street.

If, and it's a big if, PTI comes back, it would be difficult to trust the foundations of our political system that can be instantly changed. Western-educated Pakistanis, who saw what our parents saw, would find it hard to trust PTI or any other political party in building trust. Investment requires stability and process which we have failed to establish.

 

[PakAl]

He has held multiple rallies, but when the pressure mounted, he backed down and called things off. This did not send a revolutionary message of any sort. Eventually, he overplayed things.

He backed down because not many people were coming out. He didn't want 5,000 here and 10,000 there. PTI needed millions on the streets but it wasn't possible, and I doubt it be possible in the future unless the establishment and police gives it a go ahead. I think it was a good decision.

The idiots would fight the army, and the sensible would sit down and talk things through. Imran Khan did have one issue, and that was not taking proper advice and listening to politically illiterate people. When people within his own party said to remove Usman Dar, he didn't listen and went against the majority of voices. Now, from personal sources within local security and individuals involved in talks, they presented ideas and policy positions he would agree with, but then the next day he would do a complete 180; there is a reason his wife became a target, and people don't just talk for nothing.

Imran Khan always made these types of mistakes, he blamed the Usa for toppling him but now claiming it was just Bajwa on his own, he started jail bharo tehreek and now Pti complaining of jailing their followers, he praised the army, isi and bajwa right up until he got toppled, he claimed nawaz sharif, altaf hussain are traitors for speaking against generals but he himself doing it now with his online followers, when one Tlp leader issued Fatwa against bajwa and called him qadiani all Pti followers rallied behind bajwa and wanted to nuke the Tlp leader, Pti supported the bad treatment of Tlp protesters but facing it themselves now, others are not victims but Pti is, people told IK to not allow electable in to his party but he said don't worry, when the electables joined pti it was one wicked down and when they left they were lotas. Just some of the political stunts Pti done, imagine the stunts done behind the scenes in international relations.

It's called creating your own little mafia, you must back your party no matter what even if they're in the wrong, this is what army folks do, same with Pmln and PPP and now Pti. Same mentality.

 

[FuturePAF]

If, and it's a big if, PTI comes back, it would be difficult to trust the foundations of our political system that can be instantly changed. Western-educated Pakistanis, who saw what our parents saw, would find it hard to trust PTI or any other political party in building trust. Investment requires stability and process which we have failed to establish.

You are correct that trust is hard to earn and easily lost. This is why I say IK is the face of an opportunity for the PTI to do the hard work of making itself a viable and disciplined change agent.

At the end of the day we know it will come back to talks, with those that hold power in the country. It’s not the politicians, who are there to sell the plan, it’s the managers and experts behind the scenes, that have to work out how to will really get it done, and convince enough people to give them a chance.

For the establishment, who are having a hard time raising a few billion here and there, should give PTI middle management the opportunity to go out there and build an actual economic plan. At the very least try to raise the capital to bridge the cost of reforms.

I can see there reluctantly for the establishment to have IK come back, as a disruptive force, if it is all talk and limited action, but they also should see that should IK not come back, we may lose the opportunity to implement reforms in a more palatable manner for the public. They should insist that IK only be a transitional leader, governing for one term, and having a meritocratic plan of succession, so the party doesn’t become a nepotistic creature like the PML-N and PPP and basically all other parties in Pakistan.

We can see the country has been in paralysis for the past two years, muddling along but sinking deeper into quicksand with each passing month as debt repayments come due and opportunities pass the country by. This is the time, IMHO, the best time to quietly let PTI middle management come up with a real plan.

btw, the last example by PTI similar to this was the fundraising with the Dam Fund, but they have to think bigger and immediate results, so we can implement higher taxes soon after and people can see the results ASAP.

 

[Cash gk]

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[Fatman17]

Article 6 is very difficult to prove under any circumstances.

 

[Cash gk]

Everyone knows the reality of what has been done with PTI and how plans were executed against PTI before the election. Now, they are talking nonsense. General Asim Munir is stuck in the heart and mind of Pakistanis. The man will be punished in hell; his time is very near. According to insiders, both General Asim Munir and justice isa will be hanged when they are out of power. Both have destroyed their institutions and Pakistan. Another insider talk is that their institutions will not protect them once they are out of power, but they will make sure these two do not live long and become examples. Many junior generals are cursing Asim Munir and Anjum Nadeem, and similarly, many junior judges really want to see Isa hanged in the streets of Pakistan.

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