India - China History and Relations

Don't trust the Western media's definition of "democracy". To determine whether a country is democratic or not, one should look at the power structure behind it.

If a country is one in which the people control capital through the government, then that country is a democracy.

If a country is one in which capital controls the people through the government, then that country is not a democracy.

You have a primitive definition for a democracy

Democracy means representative form of government with checks and balances. You cannot have arbitrary and selective enforcement of laws like in China and still be called a democracy.
 
I like to think about things from the government's point of view so that I can judge how things are going. I have always believed that the first aim of the Government in everything it does is to maintain order and stability in society, rather than pursuing justice, fairness and economic development. The pursuit of justice and fairness is only a means used to achieve an end, but not an end in itself. Economic development is the inevitable development brought about by the maintenance of social order and stability, and it is not an end in itself.

By the same token, politics, diplomacy, war, and trade are necessary means to an end. So I don't think it's human nature to conquer others, but rather a nation goes to war when it needs external conquest to satisfy its internal order and stability.

For example, why does the Chinese Government always want to settle international disputes by peaceful means? It is because order and stability in China need a good economy to be maintained, and China's economy is largely influenced by foreign trade. So China needs a peaceful world to maintain the stability of foreign trade(和气生财). By the same token, the U.S. needs economic development, but the U.S. is a country where domestic demand is the guide to economic growth. And war is the greatest domestic demand, so the United States always needs war, especially when facing economic crisis.

That is why we should first consider what kind of Sino-Indian relationship the governments of these two countries need to maintain domestic order and stability when discussing China-India relations. And considering India's domestic situation, their government needs a hostile China.

As for what these average Indians think, does it matter? These Indians simply do not have the ability to think independently, much less influence government decisions. They are just a bunch of populists who like to watch godi media. whatever godi media says, they believe. Why would you waste your time engaging with them?

As for China and India going to war. Don't worry, the Indian government just needs an enemy country that it can use to terrorize its internal citizens, not one that will actually destroy it. The Indian government is more afraid of a war with China than any Indian because it knows the real China better than godi Indians.
Your attitude, FALSE bravedo and impression is not helping the thread at all. @Nilgiri
And India doesn't Need any enemy to unite India. It is in nature of India to be united. This is absolutely FALSE impression you have. I don't know from where you got it.
 
There are parts I agree with, other parts I disagree with.

Centralisation for centralisation sake is bad.

Same as decentralisation for decentralisation sake is bad.

Be it the central govt vs regional.

Or the role of the citizenry compared to say one legal "central" political party in the staffing of the govt for its decision making and law and order.

They (centralised vs decentralised) are not ends to themselves, rather they are means to a greater end.

How do we find the right balance, the right amount of salt to add to a soup.

To me this requires analysis of:

A) The constitution (highest authority) principles (and why)

B) The checks and balances within this constitution (and why)

C) The faithful implementation of the constitution, its amendment process and/or re-convening for replacement (and why)

To me there are clear qualitative differences between every nationstate, even with their context and circumstances accounted for (at the time of nationstate formation and then the course of it afterwards).

Rest is really time and interest invested into deep study of this subject in all the varieties the human species has produced, current time, near-current and historical/archaic.

In China's case the summary of note, is why the Sun-Yat-Sen constitutional drafting commenced under the principles it did (after Qing dynasty was disestablished). Then the long subject of what happened to that (regd compromises KMT made with the CCP, each parties various factions and the turbulence of that time), his relatively early unfortunate demise, the civil war that followed, the nasty invader that entered into China and the impacts these would have regd the 1949 establishment of the PRC with CCP as sole legal political party....with 4 constitutions to follow.

This is ultimately a very different state of events and deep contexts to India across same time period....and India's one sole constitution from 1950.

But we can even start at this midway point in the century (1950) when the nationstates have both established to compare and contrast purely the state-state....and then the state-state for the other axis vectors for China (I listed in previous post) that are very useful to do in my opinion.

You are open minded and want a honest exchange of views, so it will be fruitful....it will just take time to do as it is all about ultimately understanding reality as best as possible. A reality we all share in end, whatever delusions some of us may have inserted to substitute, to act as a personal emotional crutch or otherwise.

Those with less (or little) understanding of reality in this subject, tend to have formed primitive, prejudicial, ignorant conclusions. I only hope its specific to this domain and not a general character trait of theirs.

Sometimes protracted participation with skirmishing posters have made them worse for wear too upon this when it comes to a forum that has existed quite some time with its various bad-faith agents outnumbering good-faith ones.

I generally take a dim view when some post contains terms like "these Indians" or "these Chinese" or "these Pakistanis" etc.. to begin with.

It is an emotional basis first, that forms its various delusions and self-referenced narratives..... and that colours any intake and processing of objective reality from the start.

So it is not surprising if they get stuck running in circles and are unable to comprehend for example, exactly why the USSR broke up (as you will notice in my axis directions earlier w.r.t PRC) with its power/wealth levels attained and 3 constitutions... and India has not with its power/wealth levels and single 1950 constitution.

i.e Was the USSR a case of centralised for centralised sake to some degree and how much?....compared to say India. What is the problem if a political party within India tries to generate sufficient contravention of the balance India found in its constitution that has stood test of time compared to far mightier USSR (that from the other's point of view had utterly no business breaking up like it did with their flawed reductive emotionally biased "logic").

It needs that analysis of A) B) and C) I gave earlier....and maybe especially B (in my opinion).

i.e what are checks and balances, what are their key role w.r.t power and the long term toughness of the state (and nation it accounts for) so it is neither too soft/exposed or too brittle. With optimal balance of the metal's toughness, it can do the most good and most work with best transmission of reality and truth (governing the top-down and bottom-up processes and their respective best roles and qualities).

In my opinon, PRC could have done a lot better job than it has (on A, B and C), but its a really long subject in end to explore well. India has done about as well as it can have done with the 1950 constitution with what it inherited and could learn from the successful nationstate snapshot it had at the time to process.

i.e What's the best reading on it one ought to have done several times over to be competent on it (or whats a basic place to start even).
The inconsistency in the logic of thinking about the study of politics between us has led us to understand some political terms in completely different ways. I can only try to explain some of your questions and points in a Chinese perspective.

China has a complete and rigorous historical record and living habits throughout its thousands of years of history. They have shaped the traditions of the Chinese people today. These traditions take precedence over the law. Or rather, many Chinese laws are based on these traditions. When the state needs to make laws that go against these traditions, it must first do a lot of emotional work to get the general public to accept the new rules from the inside. Otherwise, the Chinese will not pay any attention to these laws and will still continue to live according to these traditions.
Unlike the situation in many countries, the influence of these traditions on the Chinese is far greater than the influence of traditions on the people in other countries, and far greater than the influence of religion on the population.
Ordinary Chinese people know that there are many laws in China, but they do not care about the terms of these laws. This is because they know that what the laws stipulate is basically the same as the traditions they have in their daily lives. Even when the Mongols, Manchus, and Japanese occupied Han Chinese areas throughout history, they had to respect those traditions when they made laws in those places. For example, all Chinese know the traditional concept of ‘killing a man pays for his life’, but few know what the law says about it. It is only when we come across such things that we look up the legal provisions. Of course, society is developing. Many legal provisions are also gradually becoming new traditions for Chinese people.
As for CCP, he respects these traditions and endeavours to lead the people together towards the ideal society of the Chinese. So, it is the Chinese people who choose CCP as their leader, not CCP who is fooling the Chinese people. Compared to traditional Chinese culture, the influence of CCP is negligible. Don't forget, these CCP members, they are firstly Chinese before they are CCP members. If they want to challenge these traditions, they must first challenge themselves.
Therefore, if we try to interpret and study the Chinese Constitution, we might as well study these Chinese traditions. Ordinary Chinese don't care about what's inside the Constitution at all.
If you are interested, try to study Chinese history. China has used various state systems of today's world in its developmental history. Federalism, Constitutional Monarchy, Parliamentary System ............. The only difference is that they are called differently.

Regarding democracy and centralisation: as I said earlier, it's a dynamic property rather than a static one. To describe it more directly: today's India is a centralised state. Past or future, constitution or performance, it doesn't matter. It does now. If you compare carefully, you will see: India and China have different ways of describing and manifesting the relevant provisions of the institutions of power, but the core is the same. How the Supreme Leader is created, the scope of his powers, and the provisions for his term of office ............. The most controversial: India calls it arising from different political parties; China calls it arising from different factions. But their essence is the same, only the description is different, and they are also produced by different political groups.
So I don't think there is any substantial difference between India and China in terms of democracy and centralisation of power.
 
You have a primitive definition for a democracy

Democracy means representative form of government with checks and balances. You cannot have arbitrary and selective enforcement of laws like in China and still be called a democracy.

No matter what the system is, it is the distribution of rights behind it that counts. Even if you have a representative system, if in the end, it is the capitalist plutocrats who control everything, it is still not democracy.

By the way, first of all, China is also a representative country. The Chinese also have votes and elections.
Secondly, I didn't say which country's power is controlled by capital, so why are you so anxious? Do you realize that what I said?
 
Your attitude, FALSE bravedo and impression is not helping the thread at all. @Nilgiri
And India doesn't Need any enemy to unite India. It is in nature of India to be united. This is absolutely FALSE impression you have. I don't know from where you got it.
Right. So may I ask during which period India had no external enemies?
 
Right. So may I ask during which period India had no external enemies?
We were never China's enemy before China attacked 1962 for whatever political reason. We had a saying in India "Hindi-Chini bhai bhai" mean Indian and Chinese are brother. So much trust we had on China. It was shattered in 1962.
Pakistan is a different case. Only a Pakistani and Indian can understand this enmity. We tried our best to make Pakistan feel comfort with us. There are so many examples of India's efforts of peace with Pakistan. But unfortunately we didn't succeed in that.
Otherwise India never had external enemy.
 
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In China's case the summary of note, is why the Sun-Yat-Sen constitutional drafting commenced under the principles it did (after Qing dynasty was disestablished). Then the long subject of what happened to that (regd compromises KMT made with the CCP, each parties various factions and the turbulence of that time), his relatively early unfortunate demise, the civil war that followed, the nasty invader that entered into China and the impacts these would have regd the 1949 establishment of the PRC with CCP as sole legal political party....with 4 constitutions to follow.
About Dr Sun Yat-sen and ROC.

To this day, Mr Sun's contribution to the development of China is still celebrated by the Chinese people. Whether Chinese or foreigners, we have no disputes when it comes to his affairs.

About ROC. In all the records in China today, the ROC before Chiang Kai-shek gained real power is objective and impartial. During the period between Chiang Kai-shek's acquisition of real power and 1949, some of the records are somewhat biased, but these biased records are being gradually corrected and many historical truths are being restored. ...... My grandfather was a senior general of the Kuomintang. Some of the historical materials collected by my family have been handed over to some research institutes, and these materials will be made public in due course, and their disclosure will change the perceptions of many people. ..... ...After 1949, the Chinese government replaced the ROC. but the people and organisations of the ROC are still recognised, they just change the way they are called.

Analysing Mr Sun and his ROC from a historical point of view. they were an inevitable presence and a necessary phenomenon in the course of Chinese history. Their ideas and ways are not suitable for building a better China. But again, they had to exist. Without them, there would be no CCP and no China today. The meaning of ‘overkill’ is: when we want to correct a deviation, we need to deviate more in the opposite direction, and after the natural rebound, it is the right direction.

When Chiang Kai-shek took over the ROC, the huge impact of traditional Chinese culture and western culture was more than he could cope with. Failure became inevitable. CCP in this period was weak, but it found its direction in this collision of Chinese and Western cultures. Success became inevitable.

As I said earlier, in the face of traditional Chinese culture, any political party or law can only conform to it. It will always move forward according to its own laws. Before it, political parties and laws can be ignored.
 
I will assign (w.r.t China) for a state-state matrix component analysis:

A as South
B as South East
C as East
D as North
E as West
F as South West

1 as pre-1949
2 as 1949 - 1981
3 as 1981 - 2002
4 as 2002 - present

So an example of a conflict study here and its lingering residual analysis in state-state could for example be A3 w.r.t the 1979-1989 situation between PRC and Vietnam.

Then how the state-state made adjustment for better nation-nation heading/deference etc to present day.

It can then be compared to the F-block study which contains India-China. F2, F3 and F4 especially (given established nationstate basis for it).
About the China's external situation::

The views of the Chinese are totally different from these views of yours.

It is always known that China and the United States are fighting for supremacy. For other countries, when two giants fight, how to use this opportunity to gain the most benefits is their core idea. They will decide what to say and what to do according to their own situation. They have to be very careful and cautious in handling some issues to avoid becoming a casualty of this battle for supremacy. This is different from what we get from diplomacy and the media.

Let's try to analyse some representative countries:
Japan and South Korea: they have an alliance agreement with the United States and they have to align themselves with the United States on many policy levels. However, no country wants to keep letting other countries have total control all the time. Japan and South Korea have been trying, in various ways, to get the US to loosen or even lift its control over them, especially Japan. So, they have been actively increasing their influence in the US-China rivalry, trying to get the US to value their presence and thus loosen its control over them. (See Japan's performance in the Korean War, and Japan's economic rise as the US loosened its grip on Japan) But they've been very careful to avoid completely provoking China, and have done a lot of things privately. (Ref. trade figures between China and Japan and Korea in recent years)
Southeast Asian countries: they don't want to get involved in the hegemony, They prefer business. As for the Philippines, China doesn't care about it. every step Marcos takes forward, China will take more steps forward. He has given China a great opportunity to solve the South China Sea issue and China wants him to continue. But his political opponents can no longer tolerate him ...........
There are some countries that want to put some pressure on China to give some economic aid in exchange for their solidarity with China. They don't have any will or strength to confront China. That is all.
There are too many countries, I won't analyse them one by one ...........

Anyway, in the Chinese point of view, currently China only has the US as a strategic level opponent. When China develops to have enough power, these neighbouring countries will take the initiative to adjust their foreign policy. Against other individual countries or regions, we only study tactics.
Of course, militarily, China has been preparing for the worst. The COVID-19 incident proved China's ability to respond to national emergencies, and it gave Chinese policymakers a great deal of confidence on the issue of war. We can clearly see that after this incident, the PLA has become more aggressive and larger in its foreign military activities.
 
No matter what the system is, it is the distribution of rights behind it that counts. Even if you have a representative system, if in the end, it is the capitalist plutocrats who control everything, it is still not democracy.

By the way, first of all, China is also a representative country. The Chinese also have votes and elections.
Secondly, I didn't say which country's power is controlled by capital, so why are you so anxious? Do you realize that what I said?

I never mentioned capital anywhere. This is my quote. Read again
Democracy means representative form of government with checks and balances. You cannot have arbitrary and selective enforcement of laws like in China and still be called a democracy.

As a practical matter someone has to exercise control. Do you want a unknown bureaucrat to control things ?

As a practical matter do you expect a homeless bum on the street to have the same influence as a grocery store owner who employs 20 people ?
 
You have a primitive definition for a democracy

Democracy means representative form of government with checks and balances. You cannot have arbitrary and selective enforcement of laws like in China and still be called a democracy.
Clearly one governed by a garbled version of Marxism. So here capital comes into play, the people - undifferentiated into classes - come into play. Interesting, although weird.
 
We were never China's enemy before China attacked 1962 for whatever political reason. We had a saying in India "Hindi-Chini bhai bhai" mean Indian and Chinese are brother. So much trust we had on China. It was shattered in 1962.
Pakistan is a different case. Only a Pakistani and Indian can understand this enmity. We tried our best to make Pakistan feel comfort with us. There are so many examples of India's efforts of peace with Pakistan. But unfortunately we didn't succeed in that.
Otherwise India never had external enemy.
This is a classic paranoid topic. Not the way scholarship and academic discussion works.

The 1962 Sino-Indian War: India thought it was a Chinese invasion; China thought it was an Indian invasion. Indians think they are peace lovers; China thinks they are peace lovers.
Indo-Pakistani War, China-Indian Conflict ..................

Obviously, when each side is in an antagonistic state of mind, no one can get to the truth, much less persuade the other side, only to be rewarded with a deeper sense of hostility.
If we want to get to the truth, we can try to use a more rational attitude and clearer evidence.

But the truth is very cruel, and I do not think we have enough courage to face the truth.
 
The inconsistency in the logic of thinking about the study of politics between us has led us to understand some political terms in completely different ways. I can only try to explain some of your questions and points in a Chinese perspective.
Bound to be, and our respective explanations of what seems strange to people rooted in other points of view will throw light both on those things being explained, and on us, who seek to explain.

China has a complete and rigorous historical record and living habits throughout its thousands of years of history. They have shaped the traditions of the Chinese people today. These traditions take precedence over the law. Or rather, many Chinese laws are based on these traditions. When the state needs to make laws that go against these traditions, it must first do a lot of emotional work to get the general public to accept the new rules from the inside. Otherwise, the Chinese will not pay any attention to these laws and will still continue to live according to these traditions.
Unlike the situation in many countries, the influence of these traditions on the Chinese is far greater than the influence of traditions on the people in other countries, and far greater than the influence of religion on the population.
Ordinary Chinese people know that there are many laws in China, but they do not care about the terms of these laws. This is because they know that what the laws stipulate is basically the same as the traditions they have in their daily lives. Even when the Mongols, Manchus, and Japanese occupied Han Chinese areas throughout history, they had to respect those traditions when they made laws in those places. For example, all Chinese know the traditional concept of ‘killing a man pays for his life’, but few know what the law says about it. It is only when we come across such things that we look up the legal provisions.
To be honest, those few, very few, among Indians who have some knowledge and information about China and the Han Chinese people have gathered what you have stated. Perhaps not with such accuracy, not with such width, but near enough for the rest of us Indians to get the impression.

It needs to be said, however, that you are speaking at a deep, conceptual level. Many posts tend to brush that aside, and straightaway point to transactional matters - the Sino-Indian War of 1962, that was never a war at all - to define the relationship between the two countries.

Of course, society is developing. Many legal provisions are also gradually becoming new traditions for Chinese people.
This is interesting. Interesting, because we get an opportunity to see what influences such development, what new thoughts, concepts and practices reach home to the people at large.

As for CCP, he respects these traditions and endeavours to lead the people together towards the ideal society of the Chinese. So, it is the Chinese people who choose CCP as their leader, not CCP who is fooling the Chinese people. Compared to traditional Chinese culture, the influence of CCP is negligible. Don't forget, these CCP members, they are firstly Chinese before they are CCP members. If they want to challenge these traditions, they must first challenge themselves.
Your points are noted. The impression I, personally, have is not identical to what I read from your post.

For instance, the influence of Marxism, particularly of the developed concept of that ideology that stemmed from Stalin, and followed Lenin, that was interpreted in a particular manner, not necessarily a China-specific manner, by Mao Zedong, cannot be brushed aside. It has had a lasting imprint on China as a state, although it is also clear that the efforts of Mao to destroy the respect for traditions and the past, notably during the Cultural Revolution, did not work.

It also does not seem convincing to be told that the Chinese people chose the CCP. There is a lot more to it than that, and the struggle between the Communists and the Nationalists, once more, cannot be brushed aside. While it conveys a romantic and idealised notion of recent historical events, it may not be very accurate. Ignoring the role of Deng Xiaoping in reversing some of the extreme policies of Mao is also very controversial.

The present situation may support your depiction of a party that acknowledges the unvoiced opinion of the Chinese people, although it is difficult to imagine a situation where this opinion is fished out of social media, in the absence of any mechanism by which it can be gauged by the politicians/party member.
Therefore, if we try to interpret and study the Chinese Constitution, we might as well study these Chinese traditions. Ordinary Chinese don't care about what's inside the Constitution at all.
If you are interested, try to study Chinese history. China has used various state systems of today's world in its developmental history. Federalism, Constitutional Monarchy, Parliamentary System ............. The only difference is that they are called differently.

Regarding democracy and centralisation: as I said earlier, it's a dynamic property rather than a static one. To describe it more directly: today's India is a centralised state. Past or future, constitution or performance, it doesn't matter. It does now. If you compare carefully, you will see: India and China have different ways of describing and manifesting the relevant provisions of the institutions of power, but the core is the same. How the Supreme Leader is created, the scope of his powers, and the provisions for his term of office ............. The most controversial: India calls it arising from different political parties; China calls it arising from different factions. But their essence is the same, only the description is different, and they are also produced by different political groups.
So I don't think there is any substantial difference between India and China in terms of democracy and centralisation of power.
A thought-provoking post. I had replied in detail and at length, but my work was wiped out by an unexpected power outage that outlasted my UPS. Perhaps later, if my household chores permit (it is already midnight, so not much more time left).

Thank you for the inputs. Whether I agree or disagree is another matter, and of course, those knowledgeable in these matters will no doubt have a lot to say.
 

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