Iranian Air Force (IRIAF/IRGC-ASF) | News and Discussions

[ToddE]

Not questioning its authenticity. Its just that news of such developments are so rare really, that an 'oh wow' moment occurred.

Oh ok. Well they have been there for years now.

Dowran was slated to receive PL-12 (SD-10A) missiles. I wonder if these had ever actually been delivered?

No chance, Iran never received any Chinese A2A missiles except PL-7C

F-4E/D Dowran can practically launch Fakour-90 but planes RCS and G-Limit is reduced massively.

I would say much more. It will of course be an attack aircraft of note, given its pedigree. No reason that it can't be the same in an air-air role. Especially given the known qualities of it Bayyenat-1 radar and for instance Sidewinder AIM-9-- or Azarakhsh-2 WVR missiles, shown.

You are right but problem is $$$, An F-4E/D upgraded to Dowran standard will need atleast 10 million USD per airframe (I am assuming) so to maintain a fleet of 60-80 attack jets the force needs 1 Billion USD. IRIAF is given no $ for whatever reason.

Fully upgraded one rivals F-15C in ground and maritime attack capabilities.

As for BVR missiles. Better that I wait for the next morsel the powers-that-be in Iran decides to throw out. If GIDS had really copied its FAAZ-1 BVR AAM from PL-12...

R-77 and R-37 are in bound with Su-35S but will they be adapted to Iranian upgraded radars is out of question.

What would prevent Iran from doing the same, had PL-12 for Dowran actually been delivered.

Piet

Chinese left Iran in 2000s and Mullahs sucked the life out of IRIAF by budget cuts.

Any hope of local light BVR (Not Fakour-90) is in AIM-7E2 driven to AIM-120 standard. Its well within Iranian tech reach. Modern throttleable solid motors, ECM, ARH/IIR, datalinking ... all capabilities in A2A domain have been shown so its all about $$$ in the end.

 

[ToddE]

22 years old Test bed.

 

[ToddE]

Some Iranian defense analyst on Twitter was arguing recently that true mass-produced Kowsar i.e. Scratch + Repository rebuilt should be deployed to defend against Cruise Missiles/Drones.



Considering how expensive this plane is (A fully armed one is 17-20 Million USD), it will be a waste of its capabilities.

They should rather have Karrars as the CM/Drone defender, give it two HOBS WVR, it already has datalink and its own EO/IRST.

 

[ToddE]

Nasr AShCM being launched by F-4E "Dowran"

 

[Immortals]

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[Piet]

22 years old Test bed.

View attachment 70643

Really nice.

Thank you for posting

Piet

You are right but problem is $$$, An F-4E/D upgraded to Dowran standard will need atleast 10 million USD per airframe (I am assuming) so to maintain a fleet of 60-80 attack jets the force needs 1 Billion USD. IRIAF is given no $ for whatever reason.

I get it that there must be some mistrust still in the AF stemming from the Shah's time.

But goodness. Life goes on.

Fully upgraded one rivals F-15C in ground and maritime attack capabilities.

Would really be a force multiplier.

R-77 and R-37 are in bound with Su-35S but will they be adapted to Iranian upgraded radars is out of question.

As I have written elsewhere, no ways will Iran accept -E models R-77 or R-37. The radar integration. I take it that this refers to F-4's Fire Control Radar.

Chinese left Iran in 2000s and Mullahs sucked the life out of IRIAF by budget cuts.

Any hope of local light BVR (Not Fakour-90) is in AIM-7E2 driven to AIM-120 standard. Its well within Iranian tech reach. Modern throttleable solid motors, ECM, ARH/IIR, datalinking ... all capabilities in A2A domain have been shown so its all about $$$ in the end.

Regarding the first sentence. The IRIAF cannot fight on two fronts. I.e. an external 'hot war' and an internal political 'cold war'.
A sure way to disaster.

For the second paragraph. Concur. Not quite sure how strategic funds allocation in Iran takes place. It must however be recognized as a flawed process.

A country cannot undertake a major overhaul of a service, such as its AF, when the opposition are already at the gates.
Piet.

 

[ToddE]

Really nice.

Thank you for posting

Piet

I see them as part of Iranian aviation history, considering they are almost 2-3 decade olds now.

I get it that there must be some mistrust still in the AF stemming from the Shah's time.

But goodness. Life goes on.

Its not just mistrust, its also a strategic level of understanding.

Saddam had world's 4th largest and well-equipped AF during first Persian Gulf war and still, he could not even dent NATO's aerial invasion. No air force on earth can even dare challenge Western aerial supremacy, they will neutralize your air bases and whatever aerial assets can get airborne in time will be dealt by 5th-generation fighters. So why even go into that domain of war where you know you are gonna lose bad? So mullahs do have a point.

There is a reason US allows islamic countries to have air forces, even funds/provides them with planes because they know they are not gonna make any difference. Conventional warfare is a tool of west and Iranian mullahs understand this game too well. They want to cover the air space with strong IADS and use attacks through missiles and drones.

Would really be a force multiplier.

IMO, let IRGC-AF maintain and upgrade F-4E/D fleet. They pulled a massive upgrade on SU-22M3/M4 with datalinks, ALCM/BM etc so imagine what they can do to F-4E/D. I guess even Dowran upgrade will be nothing compared to what IRGCAF can pull on this massive airframe. Not to mention Iran has a full rebuilding infrstructure at home for this 70-80 airframe strong fleet.

As I have written elsewhere, no ways will Iran accept -E models R-77 or R-37. The radar integration. I take it that this refers to F-4's Fire Control Radar.

The initial bone of contention between Russia and Iran was Russian reluctance to supply R-37+Khibiny ECM. Minus these two an SU-35S is a SU-27K.

Regarding the first sentence. The IRIAF cannot fight on two fronts. I.e. an external 'hot war' and an internal political 'cold war'.
A sure way to disaster.

IRIAF IMO should be merged with IRGCAF

For the second paragraph. Concur. Not quite sure how strategic funds allocation in Iran takes place. It must however be recognized as a flawed process.

Iranian defense industry is a chess board of Mafias and Lobbys. Capabilities are there but fund allocation, getting deals from forces etc are where shit hits the fans. The Iranian aviation industry can rival and even exceed the Israeli one if we just count the demonstrated capabilities like Avionics, Nav-Com, data linking, PGMs, A2A, radars, airframe rebuilding etc but lobbyism kills all of this.

A country cannot undertake a major overhaul of a service, such as its AF, when the opposition are already at the gates.

Piet.

IMO IRIAF will survive but as a very small force. Gone are the days of Iranian aces of aces, bringing down 10-12 enemy fighters single-handedly.

 

[ToddE]

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If you have read this, this poster (Reza mad) is raising an interesting point, he has been saying that the major problem with the Kowsar program is its MASSIVE costs due to overly ambitious capabilities that were not even needed in case of Iran. Instead, a rather simple rebuilding+upgradation program would have been more suitable because it would actually produce results instead of "Hi-tech" Kowars sitting on the assembly line for the last 4 years.

 

[Immortals]

If you have read this, this poster (Reza mad) is raising an interesting point, he has been saying that the major problem with the Kowsar program is its MASSIVE costs due to overly ambitious capabilities that were not even needed in case of Iran. Instead, a rather simple rebuilding+upgradation program would have been more suitable because it would actually produce results instead of "Hi-tech" Kowars sitting on the assembly line for the last 4 years.

I have indeed read his analysis. And if your figure of $20M per Kowsar is correct it is no wonder that this poject is DOA.

Why would Iran’s decision makers (in Tehran) spend $20M per plane on an upgraded F-5 when according to estimates an SU-35 costs between 15-20M and is a tested plane in service all around the world.

$20M is way too expensive for a domestic project given the capabilities of Kowsar is mostly internal and not design related.

 

[TallGuy]

I wanted to ask that current situation, those who are in iran see IRIAF flying aggressive CAPs? or they are effectively grounded?

currently its maintained to fly the flag!

i might sound harsh but - its neglected force after the navy

 

[ToddE]

I have indeed read his analysis. And if your figure of $20M per Kowsar is correct it is no wonder that this poject is DOA.

Babak Taghvaee said that brand new built from scratch Kowsar without armaments or depot spares costs around 10 Million USD which makes sense, its composite built airframe with FBW and is extensively heavier on the avionics side. One that is rebuilt like Mirage "KFIR" program, costs 7.5 million USD with new OWJ engines, FBW, new wings, tails, radomes etc. The slides that showed its specs mentioned same costs I think.

Now if you add a combat suite of local AIM-7 + Azaraksh HOBS for WVR, few SDB PGMs that we have seen on its wings in the assembly line or the ECM pods then yes the cost goes up to 17 Million USD. The head of SAIRAN openly talked of installing 360 deg covering HMD (might be slaved to HOBS) and AESA radar on "Domestic fighters". His words seemed to be true considering the recently seen HMD in Dowran upgraded F-4E/D during Esfahan Gunnary exercises. So yes the cost touches 20 Million.

Why would Iran’s decision makers (in Tehran) spend $20M per plane on an upgraded F-5 when according to estimates an SU-35 costs between 15-20M and is a tested plane in service all around the world.

F-5 means nothing when a capability-wise plane comes in the category or even exceeds the likes of FCK-1 or FA-50. The problem lies in the mentality of leadership. They wanted a light CAP fighter so they tasked the HESA to put as much cheese on the top as possible but refused to cover the cost when the plane was ready so is Reza correct in saying that this much extensive modernization was not needed when simple Brazilian F-5M like program could have been more feasible? I feel he is kinda right because high tech Kowsar is now sitting on the assembly line because of20 Million USD tag while a lower-grade F-5M like program costing 5-8 million USD per airframe could have been much more feasible.

Comparing Kowsar with SU-35S is like comparing Dezful missile with Sejjil. Different roles and duties so cant be compared. But for the sake of argument, just the airframe of SU-35S costs 45 Million USD, one that comes with depot spares, WVR, PGMS, Khibiny, R73/77/37, KH-31/58 will cost around 85 million USD easily. Indian SU-30MKI costs 65 million USD and is much downgraded than SU-35S so one can assume what Iran is paying.

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2024/...-expanding-su-35-sales-on-global-arms-market/

$20M is way too expensive for a domestic project given the capabilities of Kowsar is mostly internal and not design related.

20 Million price tag is not bad for this much capability considering this is a 100 % domestic program so you can build as many with local parts, and armaments as possible. The point Reza is raising, was this much modernisation even needed. Are IRIAF officials stupid or they were expecting leadership to increase the IRIAF budget by 5 folds in coming years?

My concern is that considering IRIAF is the weakest force among Iranian branches, is the decision-making even rational among its big wigs?

 

[muhammed45]

I have indeed read his analysis. And if your figure of $20M per Kowsar is correct it is no wonder that this poject is DOA.

Why would Iran’s decision makers (in Tehran) spend $20M per plane on an upgraded F-5 when according to estimates an SU-35 costs between 15-20M and is a tested plane in service all around the world.

$20M is way too expensive for a domestic project given the capabilities of Kowsar is mostly internal and not design related.

Without foreign customers and foreign investors, it would be impossible to have a cost effective and completely homemade fighter jet at same time. Mass production is something else. A country as big as the US with its money printing machines was failing to keep F-14 alive and without Shah's bribes Tomcat could end up in the dustbin of history.

Even USA imports some critical parts from China, France and Britian, imagine that Iran wants to build them all locally or import from black markets for reverse engineering. Too much time consuming and needs too much resources hence going at slow paces. Goodness of it is that when all these hardships fruits, we will have a completely local chain of supplies and mass production line with zero dependence upon foreign sources.

 

[Hack-Hook]

I have indeed read his analysis. And if your figure of $20M per Kowsar is correct it is no wonder that this poject is DOA.

Why would Iran’s decision makers (in Tehran) spend $20M per plane on an upgraded F-5 when according to estimates an SU-35 costs between 15-20M and is a tested plane in service all around the world.

$20M is way too expensive for a domestic project given the capabilities of Kowsar is mostly internal and not design related.

a question ho sell su-35 15-20m , and since when its in service all around the world
if you can provide it I buy 200 of them from you

 

[Hack-Hook]

Babak Taghvaee said that brand new built from scratch Kowsar without armaments or depot spares costs around 10 Million USD which makes sense, its composite built airframe with FBW and is extensively heavier on the avionics side. One that is rebuilt like Mirage "KFIR" program, costs 7.5 million USD with new OWJ engines, FBW, new wings, tails, radomes etc. The slides that showed its specs mentioned same costs I think.

Now if you add a combat suite of local AIM-7 + Azaraksh HOBS for WVR, few SDB PGMs that we have seen on its wings in the assembly line or the ECM pods then yes the cost goes up to 17 Million USD. The head of SAIRAN openly talked of installing 360 deg covering HMD (might be slaved to HOBS) and AESA radar on "Domestic fighters". His words seemed to be true considering the recently seen HMD in Dowran upgraded F-4E/D during Esfahan Gunnary exercises. So yes the cost touches 20 Million.



F-5 means nothing when a capability-wise plane comes in the category or even exceeds the likes of FCK-1 or FA-50. The problem lies in the mentality of leadership. They wanted a light CAP fighter so they tasked the HESA to put as much cheese on the top as possible but refused to cover the cost when the plane was ready so is Reza correct in saying that this much extensive modernization was not needed when simple Brazilian F-5M like program could have been more feasible? I feel he is kinda right because high tech Kowsar is now sitting on the assembly line because of20 Million USD tag while a lower-grade F-5M like program costing 5-8 million USD per airframe could have been much more feasible.

Comparing Kowsar with SU-35S is like comparing Dezful missile with Sejjil. Different roles and duties so cant be compared. But for the sake of argument, just the airframe of SU-35S costs 45 Million USD, one that comes with depot spares, WVR, PGMS, Khibiny, R73/77/37, KH-31/58 will cost around 85 million USD easily. Indian SU-30MKI costs 65 million USD and is much downgraded than SU-35S so one can assume what Iran is paying.

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2024/...-expanding-su-35-sales-on-global-arms-market/



20 Million price tag is not bad for this much capability considering this is a 100 % domestic program so you can build as many with local parts, and armaments as possible. The point Reza is raising, was this much modernisation even needed. Are IRIAF officials stupid or they were expecting leadership to increase the IRIAF budget by 5 folds in coming years?

My concern is that considering IRIAF is the weakest force among Iranian branches, is the decision-making even rational among its big wigs?

let ask you a question how much is upgrading our mig-29 to smt standard
and which is better that kowsar or mig-29 smt ?

 

[Immortals]

Without foreign customers and foreign investors, it would be impossible to have a cost effective and completely homemade fighter jet at same time. Mass production is something else. A country as big as the US with its money printing machines was failing to keep F-14 alive and without Shah's bribes Tomcat could end up in the dustbin of history.

Even USA imports some critical parts from China, France and Britian, imagine that Iran wants to build them all locally or import from black markets for reverse engineering. Too much time consuming and needs too much resources hence going at slow paces. Goodness of it is that when all these hardships fruits, we will have a completely local chain of supplies and mass production line with zero dependence upon foreign sources.

This is also true, aircraft do not become cheaper until you reach economics of scale and for that as you correctly eluded you need mass production not 4-5 fighter jet prototype level test beds.

To your point, for F-35 program US diversified the parts production even Turkey at one point was making F-35 parts for the program.

Iran doesn’t have this luxury to lower costs. A sacrifice of cost has to be made just like they did with Bavar 373, national security comes before cost.