Green light for Eurofighter from Germany for the Turkish Air Force
- Thread starter MMM-E
- Start date
MMM-E
Elite Member
- Thread starter
- #182
People is talking about BVR combat but not dog fight
RAFALE can not match with stealth F-35 in BVR combat
F-15 , F-16V , J-10C , SU-30MKI , SU-35 , RAFALE , Eurofighter have no any chance against the KAAN , F-35 , etc in BVR combat
RCS
KAAN Block0 : 0.01 m2 ... ( the worst possibility )
Eurofighter : 0.5 - 1,2 m2
F-16V : 1 - 1,2 m2
RAFALE : 1 m 2
J-10C : 0,5 - 1,5 m2
SU-35 : 1-3 m2
F-15EX : 5 m2
SU-30MKI : 4-15 m2
Range of engagement
KAAN : 175 km
F-15EX : 47 km
Eurofighter : 38 km
RAFALE : 35 km
F-16V : 29 km
RESULT
KAAN is designed with a number of features to reduce its RCS and make it less detectable by radar.
KAAN will have first look , first fire and first kill capability against the 4.5 gen Fighters in BVR combat
Indeed, better than nothing.
Sure Egypt and Greece are not so evolved.
France already produce alone a best seller called Rafale, with a major MLU called F5 expected in 2032, with a brand new GaN radar with AI inside to find stealthy bird, and a new UCAV for air to air and air to ground mission.
A job collegue is a closed friend of the last French Air Force Chief of staff. I will have the occasion to meet him next 14th july (have to wait 9 months) on a Rafale air base and will ask him about this F5 Rafale :
- same frame or some modifications?
- same engines or an uprated one?
- what about the next radar ? anti stealth mode?
- Is Spectra really able to create an electronic stealth ?
- What about the F5 UCAV ?
etc....
Our answer, fully french made, is already on the drawing table, with next step is SCAF in 2045.
2050 is said by the Dassault CEO to urge the germans. 2045 remains possible, in a air to air mode (as Rafale F1 was the early std, with air to air modes).
When my British colleague called, he said there was an important development in this regard.F35 is short on supercruise and agility. It's a fact.
Block 4 : what a mess ! the block 3F (F for Final) was said to give all the performances needed. It's not the case, so now a F4. You will see that F4 will (and is already) be late, not on spec, and that another block will be necessary.
It's a never ending story : F35 was from the beginning far too ambitious. LM expected to fine tune a full spec multirole jet, able from scratch to make air to air, air to ground, air to sea full missions.
The weapon system software was too complexe (and the hardware evolved in the same time), so wrote by different teams with unsufficient connexion between them. One team solved a problem and 2 new appeared for another team...
As for now nothing is fixed, and I will not be surprised if the weapon systme will never be fully opertaionnal (but LM and the US will never agree).
See South Korean KF 21 : they move step by step. It is the right approach.
F4 on order of magnitude over F22 ? Maybe. But only after F4 is a reality.
in 2024 only F22 is a reality, not F35bk4.
Mirage 2000 RCS, a now old and not really secret bird, was said to be 1 to 2m².
Rafale is said to be 10 to 20 more discreet.
So the 1m² for Rafale is a farce.
Same can be said for the rest of the list. This datas are only wet dreams of some forumers.
MMM-E
Elite Member
- Thread starter
- #188
Rafale has no stealth design
Rafale has no internal weapon bays
Rafale is carrying Missiles with external hardpoints
Also less Composite materials used in the RAFALE ( %70 )
With all these disadvantages, it is impossible for RAFALE to have a radar signature below 1 m2 RCS
RAFALE is an easy target for stealth Fighter Jets in BVR combat
MMM-E
Elite Member
- Thread starter
- #189
Even KIZILELMA unmanned stealth Fighter Jet with RCS of 0.3 m2
RAFALE with RBE2 AESA Radar can detect KIZILELMA Block2 from 43 km away
KIZILELMA Block 2 will generate a much lower radar signature ( 0.005 m2 of RCS )
-- KIZILELMA has a monocoque composite body. It means the body is a single piece without any rough surfaces. This improves stealth capability incredibly
-- KIZILELMA will carry air to air missiles in the internal weapon stations for stealth flight capability
-- The RAM paint being developed by ASELSAN will reduce the RCS value of the KIZILELMA
(The RCS value of the F16 has been reduced from 5m2 to 1.2m2 with Have Glass-V paint)
-- In KIZILELMA, since there is no canopy, there is no radar beam entering the cockpit, but it is completely reflected from the convex surface and does not return to the enemy radar.
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UKBengali
Elite Member
I think Rafale and Eurofighter are around for 0.1m^2 with semi-recessed air to air missiles.
They are LO and so do still stand a chance against VLO aircraft like F-35, especially if they have latest radars and sensor fusion up to 5th generation standards, with an advantage in supercruise and manoeuvreability.
MMM-E
Elite Member
- Thread starter
- #191
No maybe 0,001 m2
Even without weapons and fuel tanks it is impossible to be 0.1 m2
Rafale can not match with the F-35 in BVR combat ..... not even close
Rafale's would be downed even before pilots can realize what hit them.
In terms of sensor fusion : F-35
Powerful EWCM : F-35
Longer range detection : F-35
Stealthiness : F-35
RAFALE Radar can not detect the F-35 from even 50+ km away
The IRST detection range from front is about 50 km in very good weather conditions
F-35 Radar will detect the RAFALE from 120 km away (if RAFALE with RCS of even 0,3 m2)
and F-35 armed with 160 km AIM-120D air to air Missile
but RAFALE and EUROFIGHTER have advantage against bulky F-35 in dog fight
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AZADPAKISTAN2009
Elite Member
Don't see Turkey benefiting any immediate wars from this deal
A fall gap measure
By the time the first planes will arrive , their local planes will be already available
A fall gap measure
By the time the first planes will arrive , their local planes will be already available
K2RULEZ
Elite Member
Apparently, Türkiye isn't allowed to use these fighter jets in a dogfight against Greek fighter jets. These fighters are also not allowed to be used during war against Greece. A condition set by Germany.
Hakikat ve Hikmet
VIP Member
According to the Turkish FM at a recent TV interview, no such conditions to constrict the theater of usage exist for the Eurofighrer to be purchased.....
K2RULEZ
Elite Member
If so, that would be welcome news for Türkiye.
