PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[PakShaheen_79]

No
I wanted to fly and nothing else - although I almost became one until Acdre Rizwan Shaheed plainly told me to get out of Pakistan and not go into the system. May Allah bless him for his inception that led to my success today.

You got really good and wise advice man. Now every other Pakistani is desperate for the same i.e. getting out of Pakistan.

 

[Oscar]

Your response was not required .. please wigh-in to see what is needed

just because rafel is the best europen fighter does not mean it is the best in the world

J16 and j15 are su-27/su-30 highly upgraded in china not chinses from groud up ..yes yes yes j10 has some Israeli connection lets get over it

And the JF17C, which rubs salt on European wounds" ... sorry, but that's the joke of the day! --> prove it

For Chinese and Pakistani airforce, there is nothing in Europe superior to J10CP and JF-17C. ... only to be topped by this sentence! What about Rafale & Eurofighter and surely the Gripen-E is also superior to the JF-17C! And for the J-10CE, yes, it's a formidable beast, but look at the PAF's numbers! --> i was not talking numbers but mere j10CP and european fighters offered in the table. Yes JF17C is no Gripen-E but it is right up there in the vicinity of 4++ gen fighters on the world stage. This was not possible 20 years ago where europe was leading in all aspects of technology. That is not the case

again your response was not needed try to skip things when not required. be respectful

Both statements are capable of being interpreted as biased nonsense due to the lack of context
There is no other way to say it.

The JF-17 block-3 as a package IS inferior to the Gripen-E.

But HOW is also important as the WHY-

Gripen E has a larger airframe with a complex design that provides better maneuverability compared to the JF-17 - but then the JF-17’s airframe while conventional in design is also easier to manufacture and scale - that is what the PAF needed.

The Gripen has a more powerful T/W and can supercruise but that engine is more expensive(and has strings) compared to what the RD-93 offers to Pakistan.

The Raven AESA is MORE capable than KLJ-7 AESA - but then costs an arm and a leg more

Both the Meteor with Raven and PL-15 with KLJ-7 are comparable combinations.

Both the JF-17 and Gripen E now have mostly comparable multi role munitions they can deploy.

Now, here is the main kicker -
For the PAKISTAN AIR FORCE’s Air Staff requirements which are made on very detailed intelligence and operational analysis specific to it’s environment and limitations - the JF-17C meets (and in certain cases exceeds) its needs in the COMPLETE spectrum of operations BOTH in wartime AND peacetime duties.

I cite this story because it’s to me standing next to the horse’s mouth in the case of PAF procurement during IDEAS when I asked about Gripen-C which was on the table.

The simple answer was “We don’t really want it, we have an interceptor in the JF-17 and F-16 is good for multi-role and air superiority- we need a bomber(strike aircraft) and want the M2K”

Apply that same metric today for anything the PAF has -

What would the better Gripen E truly bring from an incremental perspective that the much cheaper JF-17C does not provide the PAF for its requirements?

Or what the J-10C brings in terms of capabilities that for the PAFs needs and operating environment is not more than enough to counter the Rafale and all else it will encounter in its threat environment?

Stop living in this - This jet is better or not - instead, will this jet operating with everything around it still kill the better jet when it’s operating with all it has backing it up?

My opinion based on what I know is so long as PAF’s training and tactics are not compromised by poor leadership and overall morale - its 24/7 365 that no Rafale can have any easy day operating even near Pakistani airspace.

Indians will differ and it’s their right - that’s why they joined this forum.

 

[Jango]

No
I wanted to fly and nothing else - although I almost became one until Acdre Rizwan Shaheed plainly told me to get out of Pakistan and not go into the system. May Allah bless him for his inception that led to my success today.

Welcome to the club then

My whole tabbar dissuaded me

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

 

[Dalit]

Hi,

And this is what has made the enemy crying out loud and running around in circles---.

There much vaunted F3 ( I believe ) Blk is a step behind the J-10C's---& when the F4 lands---the coming J-10C's would counter them as well.

The enemy---in its grand planning of things never expected that to happen---.

Now they are crushed by their decision---paying 161 Million dollars for the F4 version each that would be neutered by a 50 million dollar J10 Blk D---.

You can hear the screams of their defense analysts on youtube---their air marshals are commenting senseless---.

It truly has reached a stage where they will fall into the lap of the USA like a ripe mango falling from the tree---and when the USA will have them by giving them the F-35 and taking away their sovreignty---the 'bobble heads' would find no mercy from the Yankees---.

Then they will find out the truth about t=what the proverbial " KILL SWITCHES " can do---.

This is the MastanKhan that I like. Classic MastanKhan.

 

[Oscar]

Welcome to the club then

My whole tabbar dissuaded me

Oh yeah
Everyone -
And it’s very odd but I think it comes from a combination of the impression that their lives were very tough and they don’t want people they care for to go through with it - and the “get out of Pakistan” because they don’t see anyone reaching their full potential here because neither the system nor people are enablers of excellence -

haters can hate - but Pakistanis are pretty much as a collective a less than average bunch whose system keeps them that way

 

[MastanKhan]

Both statements are capable of being interpreted as biased nonsense due to the lack of context
There is no other way to say it.

The JF-17 block-3 as a package IS inferior to the Gripen-E.

But HOW is also important as the WHY-

Gripen E has a larger airframe with a complex design that provides better maneuverability compared to the JF-17 - but then the JF-17’s airframe while conventional in design is also easier to manufacture and scale - that is what the PAF needed.

The Gripen has a more powerful T/W and can supercruise but that engine is more expensive(and has strings) compared to what the RD-93 offers to Pakistan.

The Raven AESA is MORE capable than KLJ-7 AESA - but then costs an arm and a leg more

Both the Meteor with Raven and PL-15 with KLJ-7 are comparable combinations.

Both the JF-17 and Gripen E now have mostly comparable multi role munitions they can deploy.

Now, here is the main kicker -
For the PAKISTAN AIR FORCE’s Air Staff requirements which are made on very detailed intelligence and operational analysis specific to it’s environment and limitations - the JF-17C meets (and in certain cases exceeds) its needs in the COMPLETE spectrum of operations BOTH in wartime AND peacetime duties.

I cite this story because it’s to me standing next to the horse’s mouth in the case of PAF procurement during IDEAS when I asked about Gripen-C which was on the table.

The simple answer was “We don’t really want it, we have an interceptor in the JF-17 and F-16 is good for multi-role and air superiority- we need a bomber(strike aircraft) and want the M2K”

Apply that same metric today for anything the PAF has -

What would the better Gripen E truly bring from an incremental perspective that the much cheaper JF-17C does not provide the PAF for its requirements?

Or what the J-10C brings in terms of capabilities that for the PAFs needs and operating environment is not more than enough to counter the Rafale and all else it will encounter in its threat environment?

Stop living in this - This jet is better or not - instead, will this jet operating with everything around it still kill the better jet when it’s operating with all it has backing it up?

My opinion based on what I know is so long as PAF’s training and tactics are not compromised by poor leadership and overall morale - its 24/7 365 that no Rafale can have any easy day operating even near Pakistani airspace.

Indians will differ and it’s their right - that’s why they joined this forum.

Hi,

Oscar---thanks for a great post---.

 

[Jango]

Oh yeah
Everyone -
And it’s very odd but I think it comes from a combination of the impression that their lives were very tough and they don’t want people they care for to go through with it - and the “get out of Pakistan” because they don’t see anyone reaching their full potential here because neither the system nor people are enablers of excellence -

haters can hate - but Pakistanis are pretty much as a collective a less than average bunch whose system keeps them that way

In my case it was a bit different.

All of the generation above me is/was in the army.

And every single one of them said that you'd be wasted in the army. Their perspective was that it is a place where you'd most likely rot and just pass through life, and much better things could be had by not going to the army.

I guess they were right.

But my main motivation to go to the army was to fly helis

 

[MastanKhan]

This is the MastanKhan that I like. Classic MastanKhan.

Hi,

I am grateful for your comments---. At the age where I am---the mind wanders a lot---moves faster than what the fingers can type---.

We plan---very concerned of the enemy plans---we are concerned and insecure---fearful & faltering---feeling the shortage of funds---shortage of resources feeling the might of the enemy---the heaviness of his hard breath on our necks---and yet we plug along---step by a step---foot by a foot---step 1---BLK1---step2---BLK2---step3---BLK3 and glory to be the men in the Paf who kept their focus on the target all that time thru telling times---.

JF17 BLK 3 is the result of a long tiring process of commitment & promise to the self and to the nation which tells you that once you have your priorities straight---you can achieve the most formidable goals in life---just like the nucs---.

A nation that could not build a bicycle---its engineers built one of the most advanced and lethal weapons of its time---.

Come to think of it why do we do that---why do we make potent weapons in a timely manner whereas our adversary struggles at every step---takes one step forward and then slips five steps back to start all over again---.

Indian analyst Abhijeet Nayar had put the reason clearly in one of his podcasts years ago----as to why india fails and pakistan succeeds with the weapons---.

It is a very interesting podcats---.

 

[Michael]

This is a photo of PLAAF's J10C and J16 flying side by side, so we can visualize the contrast between these two fighters.
I would like to remind some friends. the J10C is just a very ordinary fighter in the PLAAF's fighter sequence. Its capability is very limited, don't over exaggerate its capability. ......

 

[Oscar]

This is a photo of PLAAF's J10C and J16 flying side by side, so we can visualize the contrast between these two fighters.
I would like to remind some friends. the J10C is just a very ordinary fighter in the PLAAF's fighter sequence. Its capability is very limited, don't over exaggerate its capability. ......
View attachment 74319

There is also the aspect of WHY that is subjective to China.

The threat environment for China is completely different to the one for Pakistan.

What the J-10CP brings is sufficient for (as a brick in the wall) for Pakistan.

China faces threats from the world’s largest military power(still) AND from its allies

So it’s not just USN, USAF and ROCAF - it’s likely JASDF, RAAF all either coming together after a conflict expands and all well equipped with the latest technology, experienced and well trained.

From that perspective PAF’s challenges witbin the IAF - while relatively measurable- pale in comparison.

 

[Afif]

Both statements are capable of being interpreted as biased nonsense due to the lack of context
There is no other way to say it.

The JF-17 block-3 as a package IS inferior to the Gripen-E.

But HOW is also important as the WHY-

Gripen E has a larger airframe with a complex design that provides better maneuverability compared to the JF-17 - but then the JF-17’s airframe while conventional in design is also easier to manufacture and scale - that is what the PAF needed.

The Gripen has a more powerful T/W and can supercruise but that engine is more expensive(and has strings) compared to what the RD-93 offers to Pakistan.

The Raven AESA is MORE capable than KLJ-7 AESA - but then costs an arm and a leg more

Both the Meteor with Raven and PL-15 with KLJ-7 are comparable combinations.

Both the JF-17 and Gripen E now have mostly comparable multi role munitions they can deploy.

Now, here is the main kicker -
For the PAKISTAN AIR FORCE’s Air Staff requirements which are made on very detailed intelligence and operational analysis specific to it’s environment and limitations - the JF-17C meets (and in certain cases exceeds) its needs in the COMPLETE spectrum of operations BOTH in wartime AND peacetime duties.

I cite this story because it’s to me standing next to the horse’s mouth in the case of PAF procurement during IDEAS when I asked about Gripen-C which was on the table.

The simple answer was “We don’t really want it, we have an interceptor in the JF-17 and F-16 is good for multi-role and air superiority- we need a bomber(strike aircraft) and want the M2K”

Apply that same metric today for anything the PAF has -

What would the better Gripen E truly bring from an incremental perspective that the much cheaper JF-17C does not provide the PAF for its requirements?

Or what the J-10C brings in terms of capabilities that for the PAFs needs and operating environment is not more than enough to counter the Rafale and all else it will encounter in its threat environment?

Stop living in this - This jet is better or not - instead, will this jet operating with everything around it still kill the better jet when it’s operating with all it has backing it up?

My opinion based on what I know is so long as PAF’s training and tactics are not compromised by poor leadership and overall morale - its 24/7 365 that no Rafale can have any easy day operating even near Pakistani airspace.

Indians will differ and it’s their right - that’s why they joined this forum.

This article provides a good insight into the unique capabilities of Gripen. And it's not necessarily about its A2A or A2G specs.

Dispersed Operations: How Saab Pioneered The Concept

The need for dispersed operations, where fighter aircraft can operate from far flung locations, is being recognised across the globe. But did you know that Saab pioneered this concept decades ago?

www.saab.com

IMO, given the lack sanctuary and the magnitude of threat to the main air bases posed by peer adversaries, every air force should aim for something like this with its fighter platforms. I am curious if similar CONOPS can be executed with JF17 B3 or J10C? Has PAF and PLAAF experimented with this? @Deino

 

[Michael]

There is also the aspect of WHY that is subjective to China.
The threat environment for China is completely different to the one for Pakistan.
What the J-10CP brings is sufficient for (as a brick in the wall) for Pakistan.
China faces threats from the world’s largest military power(still) AND from its allies
So it’s not just USN, USAF and ROCAF - it’s likely JASDF, RAAF all either coming together after a conflict expands and all well equipped with the latest technology, experienced and well trained.
From that perspective PAF’s challenges witbin the IAF - while relatively measurable- pale in comparison.

I agree with you on this one. The J10CE is indeed a good enough fighter for the current PAF and it's hypothetical enemy, the IAF. But I don't agree with some of my Pakistani friends comparing the J10CE with the F35 or even overstating the J10CE's performance. This is not a rational analytical point of view.
I agree that there is a possibility that under certain specific conditions, the J10CE can indeed engage the F35 in combat and win. But I still don't think you can compare the two fighters horizontally. They are cross-generation fighters based on different combat ideologies in different systems and do not have the potential for side-by-side comparisons.

In the Chinese view, the PLA faces only one enemy, the US military. The ROK, Japanese, and Australian armies are part of the US military, not separate military organizations. the ROC military is not an enemy of the PLA, they are just a mischievous brother.

 

[gusto]

Both statements are capable of being interpreted as biased nonsense due to the lack of context
There is no other way to say it.

The JF-17 block-3 as a package IS inferior to the Gripen-E.

But HOW is also important as the WHY-

Gripen E has a larger airframe with a complex design that provides better maneuverability compared to the JF-17 - but then the JF-17’s airframe while conventional in design is also easier to manufacture and scale - that is what the PAF needed.

The Gripen has a more powerful T/W and can supercruise but that engine is more expensive(and has strings) compared to what the RD-93 offers to Pakistan.

The Raven AESA is MORE capable than KLJ-7 AESA - but then costs an arm and a leg more

Both the Meteor with Raven and PL-15 with KLJ-7 are comparable combinations.

Both the JF-17 and Gripen E now have mostly comparable multi role munitions they can deploy.

Now, here is the main kicker -
For the PAKISTAN AIR FORCE’s Air Staff requirements which are made on very detailed intelligence and operational analysis specific to it’s environment and limitations - the JF-17C meets (and in certain cases exceeds) its needs in the COMPLETE spectrum of operations BOTH in wartime AND peacetime duties.

I cite this story because it’s to me standing next to the horse’s mouth in the case of PAF procurement during IDEAS when I asked about Gripen-C which was on the table.

The simple answer was “We don’t really want it, we have an interceptor in the JF-17 and F-16 is good for multi-role and air superiority- we need a bomber(strike aircraft) and want the M2K”

Apply that same metric today for anything the PAF has -

What would the better Gripen E truly bring from an incremental perspective that the much cheaper JF-17C does not provide the PAF for its requirements?

Or what the J-10C brings in terms of capabilities that for the PAFs needs and operating environment is not more than enough to counter the Rafale and all else it will encounter in its threat environment?

Stop living in this - This jet is better or not - instead, will this jet operating with everything around it still kill the better jet when it’s operating with all it has backing it up?

My opinion based on what I know is so long as PAF’s training and tactics are not compromised by poor leadership and overall morale - its 24/7 365 that no Rafale can have any easy day operating even near Pakistani airspace.

Indians will differ and it’s their right - that’s why they joined this forum.

thank you for such a good post.

there could be a response opposite to that, all depends upon oneself.

otherwise, you can play all day with your figures, and they bring you nothing but praise from the ill-informed lot. funny thing is, it keeps them content.

 

[mythbuster]

In my case it was a bit different.

All of the generation above me is/was in the army.

And every single one of them said that you'd be wasted in the army. Their perspective was that it is a place where you'd most likely rot and just pass through life, and much better things could be had by not going to the army.

I guess they were right.

But my main motivation to go to the army was to fly helis

My baby brother too was fond of flying Helis .... He died when his mushak crashed at the age of 24 .