PAF J-35AE - News, Updates and Discussions

[UKBengali]

Eh, you seem to know a lot about WS19. Can you elaborate on the WS19?
For example.
What is its technical route?
What are its performance parameters?
What is its production status?

That is information you supplied dude.

 

[TAC]

India will never get its hands on f-35. Just look at all the preconditions on f-35 acquisition from the Turkish side. J-35 with slightly downgrade engine in ws-21 is still better than whatever India currently have unless paf wants to wait a few more years for ws-19.

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Perhaps the US will ease up on some of these onerous conditions when the penny drops that they’re not the only one selling 5th Gen birds

 

[TAC]

Pakistan will also induct the KAAN.

Possible but not happening unless Turkey develop a homegrown engine for it in the same class, which I would suggest is a long long way from usable reality.

 

[UKBengali]

I don't recall providing that information. I also never said the WS19 was a 5th generation engine. I only said something basic about the WS19 and WS21. I don't know anything about their parameters or performance. Judging from the two J-35As at this Zhuhai Airshow, there isn't much difference between the two engines.

Well you said that WS-19 is more advanced than.WS-21 and so it must logically be a "5th generation" engine. I have also read elsewhere that it uses technology developed for WS-15.

WS-21 is an enhanced Ws-13E and so maybe like the 4.5 gen US F-414(98kN wet thrust).

Well we can make good guesses can't we in this case? WS-19 is likely to hit 100kN-110kN and so allow supercruise for J-35. The WS-21 will also allow it but at lower speed.

 

[FHN]

Perhaps the US will ease up on some of these onerous conditions when the penny drops that they’re not the only one selling 5th Gen birds

India is not currently being offered the F-35 fighter jet, and there are several reasons why:
S-400 air defense systems
India operates S-400 air defense systems, which have limitations against stealth platforms like the F-35. The US has raised concerns about how data from the S-400 could be used to counter the F-35.

Russia
India has historically relied on Russia for military hardware, and the Russo-Ukraine War has caused supply delays.

Lockheed Martin
Lockheed Martin has confirmed that it is not offering the F-35A to India, and is instead focusing on the F-21 for the Indian Air Force

 

[Falcon26]

I don't recall providing that information. I also never said the WS19 was a 5th generation engine. I only said something basic about the WS19 and WS21. I don't know anything about their parameters or performance. Judging from the two J-35As at this Zhuhai Airshow, there isn't much difference between the two engines.

Well, I'll add two more bits of information.

1, WS21 is a R&D product of 606; WS19 is a R&D product of 624. However, they are produced in the same factory (different production lines). Currently, the WS21 has plenty of production capacity, and the WS19 has a very small production volume (its production version has not been fully finalized yet, and it is still in the research stage).
2, Their subsequent development is still underway at the same time.

I'm not so sure about the WS21's follow-on development program. It already has a naval version, the vectorized version is still under development.​

WS19's follow-on development program is mainly naval and vectorized versions. The naval version is expected to fly next year; the vector version is still under development.​

What is basically certain is that PAF will get the WS21 version of the J35 and PAF will not get the WS19 version of the J35 anytime soon.The only exception to this is if there is a drastic change in Indian foreign policy.

So please, those who are concerned about this issue should not continue to dwell on it.

What does India have to do with Pakistan getting the WS19?

And why are you so certain Pakistan will only get the WS-21?

 

[Michael]

Well we can make good guesses can't we in this case? WS-19 is likely to hit 100kN-110kN and so allow supercruise for J-35. The WS-21 will also allow it but at lower speed.

As of now, only the J-20 has supersonic cruise capability in China's official propaganda discourse. In the official introduction of the J35A, no description of supersonic cruise capability appears. However, we can find that the aerodynamic layout of the J35A has been optimized and designed for supersonic cruising by carefully analyzing its aerodynamic layout.

What does India have to do with Pakistan getting the WS19?
And why are you so certain Pakistan will only get the WS-21?

I can't explain. I've revealed more than enough.
You can choose to believe it or not.

 

[guangdongt]

This is a report I saw from a military blogger in China in 2019:
about the relationship between RD-33, RD-93, and WS-13:
RD-33 is a small bypass ratio turbofan engine designed by Russia in the 1970s, mainly used for the MiG-29. China did not introduce this engine, but we have a complete set of technical information - after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the economy was difficult, and the MiG-29 was unsold for a long time. That year, we obtained a series of information about RD33 at a lower cost.
The RD-93 is a turbofan mid thrust engine developed by Russia based on the RD-33. The JF-17 fighter jet jointly developed by China and Pakistan uses this engine. The 01 FC31 also uses this engine. As for the 02 FC31 using the WS-13E, its maximum thrust has increased by about 0.5 tons compared to the RD-93, reaching 8.8 tons

The FC-31 (310 verification aircraft) equipped with WS-13E for maiden flight, with the upper black tailpipe engine being RD-93 and the lower silver tailpipe engine being WS-13E

 

[Cesur]

Kaan will use American engine so most likely the deal will need American approval.

Or there could be a Pakistani variant of KAAN which could use a Chinese or Russian engine.

 

[Waz]

Or there could be a Pakistani variant of KAAN which could use a Chinese or Russian engine.

The Turks will not let their jet be flown by an engine that they themselves don't develop or use.

 

[UKBengali]

The Turks will not let their jet be flown by an engine that they themselves don't develop or use.

People suggesting this do not have the basics of how you build a fighter aircraft.

The airframe is built around the engine and not the other way around.

China knew that the Ws-15 would not be ready before the airframe, radar and avionics was developed/tested for the J-20 and so developed the fighter around the Russia AL-31F engine. In turn they then had to make the dimensions of the WS-15 almost exactly the same as the AL-31F so it would fit nicely into the J-20 airframe.

The idea that Turkey would "offer" the option for Russian or Chinese engine for KAAN is absurd as they would need to rewrite the whole flight control software for a start.

 

[guangdongt]

People suggesting this do not have the basics of how you build a fighter aircraft.

The airframe is built around the engine and not the other way around.

China knew that the Ws-15 would not be ready before the airframe, radar and avionics was developed/tested for the J-20 and so developed the fighter around the Russia AL-31F engine. In turn they then had to make the dimensions of the WS-15 almost exactly the same as the AL-31F so it would fit nicely into the J-20 airframe.

The idea that Turkey would "offer" the option for Russian or Chinese engine for KAAN is absurd as they would need to rewrite the whole flight control software for a start.

Side note: This is also an important reason for the difficult delivery of Tejas in India. They abandoned the Kavli domestic engine midway and adopted the American F404/414 engine route, which cannot be turned back. The difference between Russian made engines and American made engines is huge. Replacing the engine is almost the same as starting the whole project over again. Tejas can no doubt only be tied to the road of the United States, which is fundamentally different from Türkiye. Pakistan may have a long time to wait for Türkiye to develop its own engine

 

[UKBengali]

Side note: This is also an important reason for the difficult delivery of Tejas in India. They abandoned the Kavli domestic engine midway and adopted the American F404/414 engine route, which cannot be turned back. The difference between Russian made engines and American made engines is huge. Replacing the engine is almost the same as starting the whole project over again. Tejas can no doubt only be tied to the road of the United States, which is fundamentally different from Türkiye. Pakistan may have a long time to wait for Türkiye to develop its own engine

J-20 did replace AL-31F with WS-10C but I think that was partly because the dimensions and performance parameters were not wildly different, with WS-10C having higher dry thrust.

China of course was willing to put in the huge amount of work and money to make this happen for national security reasons, which is not the case with Turkey which is building KAAN around F-110 engine.

 

[maverick]

Any Chinese official specs on WS 19 and WS 21 ?

 

[Neocloud]

J-20 did replace AL-31F with WS-10C but I think that was partly because the dimensions and performance parameters were not wildly different, with WS-10C having higher dry thrust.

China of course was willing to put in the huge amount of work and money to make this happen for national security reasons, which is not the case with Turkey which is building KAAN around F-110 engine.

According to Wikipedia, besides the F-110 engine and the engine they are developing, they’re are also sourcing another engine for it from another country, so 3 engines altogether.

Is there a comparable and similar engine to the F-110 that can easily replace it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_TF_Kaan