International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS)

Toxic said:
I wonder how far off are we from making an indigenous AESA for the JF-17
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Not just AESA, are we ready to make indigenous APS systems for tanks like Haider or AK. Also do we have the capabilities or resources to make our own EW pods/platforms.
 
High speed wind tunnels model at GIDS stall.
@JamD @Oscar can you please give your opinion, if it’s an actual capability then what are we looking at (size, speed for the actual thing).


IMG_4818.png
 
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Samurai said:
At least POF is now trying hard and made its CW platform (although POF also needs to do more into R&D modern firearms). You got PAF which is the crown jewel right now and doing a lot and then the PN is also getting cool ships, subs and weapons.

HIT has been an embarrassment and for decades couldn't even produce a genuine product design. Where is the VIPER IFV??? Even India's TATA has made its own success and selling WhAP (8x8) to Morocco.
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You'll notice a few things...

HIT, POF, PAC, and KSEW aren't R&D entities. They were originally set up as the military's in-house MRO units, and were, by design, closely tied to the each HQ at a very granular level (operations, planning, etc).

Each of them has been a good MRO entity, but couldn't successfully evolve into an R&D-driven entity. NESCOM is primarily R&D, with now production becoming an increasingly important part of its work. Yet it seems to be approaching the production work the way a giant defence contractor would, like pursuing those projects with scale potential (e.g., munitions) that can keep a factory busy for many years, reuse core inputs for different applications (e.g., the mini turbojet for multiple ALCMs, loitering munitions, target drones, etc), and fully leverage the capacities Pakistan does have (like skill in custom integration work, such as Link-17 or Rabat ESM).

OTOH, the likes of HIT, POF, KSEW and PAC were MRO outfits that were managed like sub-branches in the PA, PN, and PAF. They were all organized to do MRO at a really high level, and can execute nicely in that domain (e.g., M109 rebuild or Saab 2000 repair), but not carry original R&D, do commercial work, etc.

The PN started to break this a little by raising NRDI to take on the R&D work, e.g., the JV with ASFAT A.S for the Jinnah-class frigate. So, basically, NRDI will design the ship, but KSEW will make it based on NRDI's instructions.

HIT has ARDIC, which has (IMO) focused really well on subsystems for armour and specific inputs (e.g., gun barrels and mechanisms for tanks). Yet, HIT isn't capitalizing and scaling this work out as much as it could. But in the long-run, I can see ARDIC and HIT having a similar relationship as NRDI and KSEW.

PAF set up NASTP for the R&D work, but it's currently unproven and bar some partnership with Baykar, hasn't taken on a serious big-ticket project yet. But I do think that time is coming, perhaps via a UCAV.
 
I hope we get some new info about PF-X as well as the locally made SAM systems shown on GIDS website
 
ghazi52 said:

Global Defense Agency


MBDA showcasing its light weight MARTE-ER extended range high-subsonic anti-ship missile on a display at IDEAS 2024.

Specifications & Features.

🔸Weight: 315kg
🔸Range: >100km
🔸Propulsion: Turbojet engine
🔸Stealth Features: Low radar cross-section


View attachment 82157
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They would not be bringing this to Pak if not ready to sell. This missile equips the AW159 Wildcat Naval chopper, which again leads me to think we may have ordered it for te Yarmooks and Barburs.
 
Quwa said:
You'll notice a few things...

HIT, POF, PAC, and KSEW aren't R&D entities. They were originally set up as the military's in-house MRO units, and were, by design, closely tied to the each HQ at a very granular level (operations, planning, etc).

Each of them has been a good MRO entity, but couldn't successfully evolve into an R&D-driven entity. NESCOM is primarily R&D, with now production becoming an increasingly important part of its work. Yet it seems to be approaching the production work the way a giant defence contractor would, like pursuing those projects with scale potential (e.g., munitions) that can keep a factory busy for many years, reuse core inputs for different applications (e.g., the mini turbojet for multiple ALCMs, loitering munitions, target drones, etc), and fully leverage the capacities Pakistan does have (like skill in custom integration work, such as Link-17 or Rabat ESM).

OTOH, the likes of HIT, POF, KSEW and PAC were MRO outfits that were managed like sub-branches in the PA, PN, and PAF. They were all organized to do MRO at a really high level, and can execute nicely in that domain (e.g., M109 rebuild or Saab 2000 repair), but not carry original R&D, do commercial work, etc.

The PN started to break this a little by raising NRDI to take on the R&D work, e.g., the JV with ASFAT A.S for the Jinnah-class frigate. So, basically, NRDI will design the ship, but KSEW will make it based on NRDI's instructions.

HIT has ARDIC, which has (IMO) focused really well on subsystems for armour and specific inputs (e.g., gun barrels and mechanisms for tanks). Yet, HIT isn't capitalizing and scaling this work out as much as it could. But in the long-run, I can see ARDIC and HIT having a similar relationship as NRDI and KSEW.

PAF set up NASTP for the R&D work, but it's currently unproven and bar some partnership with Baykar, hasn't taken on a serious big-ticket project yet. But I do think that time is coming, perhaps via a UCAV.
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Agreed, but especially for HIT, you are missing the forest for the trees. Firstly, HIT does have a research equivalent, the Military Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (MVRDE).
You should read the At the Forward Edge of Battle, which is about Pakistan's Armored Corps. HIT and POF began military R&D in Pakistan. MVRDE did a survey of all AFV destroyed and damaged in 1965 and 1971 and then made specifications for what they thought was needed for our peculiar circumstances (rather than taking Western or Chinese knock off CCCP vehicles). The T59M series resulted from that and HIT obtained a license for the L7 105MM gun manufacture and POF after testing against T72 armour plate (which isn't still clear how they got it) designed HE and eventually DU APFSDS.
And while @Toxic and @Samurai may well be angry at lack of new IFV options, the thing is HIT is constrained by what the Army wants and it has made several IFV proposals over 30 years which have gotten nowhere because the Army is very dubious about the whole IFV concept. They feel the cost and complexity is not consummate with the increased capability and it doesn't have sufficiently increased survivability versus a APC.

So again, these bodies are constrained by doctrine,

(@Panzerkiel can explain it better).
 
Areesh said:
AW159 is a possibility

If Pakistan can operate AW139 then why not this one
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For sure, need is definately there for PN. Helicopter force is in dire straights,

Sea Kings very old and too big for some ships
Aloutte IIIs now fully retired or about to be?

That leaves just 6 odd Z-9s (even these are almost 20 years old!) to equip 4 Barburs, 4 Turghils, 4 F-22Ps, 4 Yarmooks and the single OHP.

See the major issue here?

Royal Navy did all the integration for MARTE-ER onto the Wildcat about 2-3 years back. Suddenly heavy Leonardo and MBDA presence at IDEAS leads me to believe we may have gone for Wildcat. Additionally probably a big follow on order for CAMM ER on the cards

Incidentally PN has exercised with RN ships carrying wildcat quite a few times now....
 
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